Two Footed Release

[eLeung]

I have found 2 videos from Harald Harb regarding Two Footed Release and Brushed Carving. Actually, I am not familiar with these terminologies and am not sure the advantages and benefits of these techniques. Can anyone provide further explanation?

Two Footed Release
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaFLiCw2z7w&feature=related

Brushed Carving
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OF5mWte2GNA&feature=related

[skier]

This is PMTS 'method' and it is a bit different from the CSIA or PSIA. You have to go to their website to learn from their presentations.

[eLeung]

This is PMTS 'method' and it is a bit different from the CSIA or PSIA. You have to go to their website to learn from their presentations.

I have searched the PMTS website but no detailed information is found. Perhaps, I may not be familiar with these terminologies, so I cannot identify the related topics and understand the techniques.

[carver_hk-ski]

I was told it is one of the most important skill in PMTS. Here is a list of books available by Harald Harb: http://harbskisystems.com/publications.htm

There are much to learn from these books if you are so interested. :)

[eLeung]

I was told it is one of the most important skill in PMTS. Here is a list of books available by Harald Harb: http://harbskisystems.com/publications.htm

There are much to learn from these books if you are so interested. :)


Thanks, Carver_hk-ski, for providing further information. Do you know which book provide the definition and explain the techniques clearly?

[carver_hk-ski]

You are welcome. The progression is like: ACBAES 1 > ACBAES 2 while the Essentials of Skiing teaches the fundamentals. The TFR is specifically covered in both ACBAESs. ACBAES 1 also contains an important chapter on Alignment, which in my opinion is very helpful in understanding skiing apart from fixing your own alignment problem(Don't tell Harald I said that). I think when you finish learning everything in ACBAES1 you will already be a very advance skier by recreational standard. If you are already an advance skier you can head for the ACBAES2 directly. :)

[skier]

Thanks, Carver_hk-ski, for providing further information. Do you know which book provides the definition and explains the techniques clearly?

Perhaps you should visit his video lessons first:

http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm

[Mike]

Perhaps you should visit his video lessons first:

http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm

Just trying to repost the link that Skier post earlier:

http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm

[eLeung]

You are welcome. The progression is like: ACBAES 1 > ACBAES 2 while the Essentials of Skiing teaches the fundamentals. The TFR is specifically covered in both ACBAESs. ACBAES 1 also contains an important chapter on Alignment, which in my opinion is very helpful in understanding skiing apart from fixing your own alignment problem(Don't tell Harald I said that). I think when you finish learning everything in ACBAES1 you will already be a very advance skier by recreational standard. If you are already an advance skier you can head for the ACBAES2 directly. :)


Thanks, carver_hk-ski, for your suggestions. It seems you are fans of Harald Harb. Based on your understanding, what are the TFR and Brushed Carving? Could you provide further explanation in this forum?

[eLeung]

Perhaps you should visit his video lessons first:

http://www.harbskisystems.com/lessonindex.htm


Thanks, skier. This is a very good website for online learning, especially the animated images to illustrate the ski techniques. Meanwhile, it provides the demonstration of "Phantom Move" that is one of major contributions from Harald Harb. However, the discussion of Two Footed Release and Brushed Carving is not provided.

BTW, I was also told that contemporary ski method focuses on 2-footed ski instead of 1-footed ski. From this point of view, do you think "Phantom Move" is still worth learning?

[carver_hk-ski]

It seems you are fans of Harald Harb. Yes, because his video and his students video shows clearly PMTS skiing looks good. :)

Based on your understanding what are the TFR and Brushed Carving? Could you provide further explanation in this forum? Sorry, I was told by the PMTS people that my TFR and Brushed carving is not very PMTS so I think its inappropriate for me to make any comment yet. I shall link to an appropriate lesson instead. :(

This is PMTS releasing online lesson.
http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb2.htm

[eLeung]

Yes, because his video and his students video shows clearly PMTS skiing looks good. :)



Totally agree with you. This PMTS method is solid, efficient, and elegant. So, I am trying to get more information about this method. Your suggested books are very good and some of them had been read.


Sorry, I was told by the PMTS people that my TFR and Brushed carving is not very PMTS so I think its inappropriate for me to make any comment yet. I shall link to an appropriate lesson instead. :(



Understood and thanks again for your suggested link. Wish we can watch a video of your skiing with PMTS style shortly.


This is PMTS releasing online lesson.
http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb2.htm (http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb2.htm)


Is "Release to Full Turn" equal to TFR? I am quite confused why a technique uses different terminologies? BTW, could you recommand some learning materials/links regarding the definition/discussion of Brush Carving?

[carver_hk-ski]

Is "Release to Full Turn" equal to TFR? I am quite confused why a technique uses different terminologies?
I actually read through the link to see the difference. I think "Release to Full Turn" describes how one can apply TFR in practice. What I also see is that the online lesson is not very complete when compare with HH's book. In fact I think there is so much more in TFR then what is described in the online version. So the best bet is get a copy of his books.

BTW, could you recommend some learning materials/links regarding the definition/discussion of Brush Carving? Learning material would be his books. All of his books.

I found the following discussions. I didn't read all postings but what I see is the participants. Many of the contributors are ski experts. eg. Harald Harb, Bob Barne, Max, BigE, Rick, BTS, JASP, Bolter. Definitely worth reading. (Just skip the flighting part if you find any):)
PMTS site: http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1624&hilit=+brushed+carve

Epicski site: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55170&page=30

[norman]

eLeung：

小弟給一點點小小的建議，想要學會carving，是需要一個很完整的動態概念及能把這觀念具體實現。

動態概念一知半解，動作時機會不完整。即使動態概念理解了，想要具體實現是需要練習的，不然一樣無法成功。

大多數的雪友為了想學會carving，而把學習重點放錯位置，導致事倍功半，最後只能在對與錯之間混淆久久，練對而不知練對，練錯而不知練錯，自以為是對的也許是錯的，或是以為是錯的，事實上是對的。

小弟不是說那兩段影片不好，而是在那麼簡單的示範中，我們能看出什麼？恐怕不少人會看起來像是幾種似曾相識的動作影片集合體吧？如果對一個中級者而言，這個動作恐怕在雪場一直練這個動作，應該還是學不會carving的，因為缺乏基礎原理概念的知識，這應該更需要細部說明，那幾頁講得實在太簡易了。

小弟不能給些建議，畢竟想學會carving是需要很好的基礎原理概念，只要抓實這些基礎原理概念，自然很快的就能學會carving了。而小弟將這個概念是放在努力研究「滑好」、「滑對」大轉彎，會比較實際一些，弄清楚如何滑好滑對大轉彎時，小弟也相信，carving很快自然就會學會了，這僅是個人的看法而已。當然，小弟的學習方法，跟 CSIA、PSIA及PMTS也是不一樣的方式，但我相信，有些理論應該是一樣的，所以小弟很注重大轉彎的學成方式。:o

[eLeung]

I found the following discussions. I didn't read all postings but what I see is the participants. Many of the contributors are ski experts. eg. Harald Harb, Bob Barne, Max, BigE, Rick, BTS, JASP, Bolter. Definitely worth reading. (Just skip the flighting part if you find any):)
PMTS site: http://pmts.org/pmtsforum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1624&hilit=+brushed+carve

Epicski site: http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=55170&page=30


carver_hk-ski, thanks a lot. Absolutely, it is very good discussions on brushed carving.

[eLeung]

大多數的雪友為了想學會carving，而把學習重點放錯位置，導致事倍功半，最後只能在對與錯之間混淆久久，練對而不知練對，練錯而不知練錯，自以為是對的也許是錯的，或是以為是錯的，事實上是對的。

而小弟將這個概念是放在努力研究「滑好」、「滑對」大轉彎，會比較實際一些，弄清楚如何滑好滑對大轉彎時，小弟也相信，carving很快自然就會學會了，這僅是個人的看法而已。


Norman, I am very happy to share your learning philosophy and experience. I also believe that your parallel turns (大轉彎) is at a certain standard. If possible, you may upload your skiing video in this forum for our sharing.

In this thread, I would prefer to get information and discuss with members about the PMTS method through the technical terms, namely Two Footed Release and Brushed Carving. To learn carving, I would suggest to reading the previous thread in this forum (http://220.232.208.148:8080/viewtopic.php?t=1935 (http://220.232.208.148:8080/viewtopic.php?t=1935)). It not only provides carving video with Chinese and English explanation, but also records the valuable comments/discussions from different members.

[norman]

Norman, I am very happy to share your learning philosophy and experience. I also believe that your parallel turns (大轉彎) is at a certain standard. If possible, you may upload your skiing video in this forum for our sharing.


eLeung：

小弟的動作應該還不算標準，但依然樂意分享給大家看，趁這次就順手把之前拍的收集起來剪接一下，因為攝影師的功力不好，所以鏡頭常常會有跟不上或是忽遠忽近或是忽左忽右，加上功力不好，所以也無法跟拍及上紅線還要背攝影機，但她也很努力了，為了捕捉動作，她也拍到抓狂了，然後小弟就遭殃了，她說拍得爛有什麼關係，反正我能把影片剪一剪，拍不好也能剪出一些來……小弟哪有那麼神呀？所以此影片已經很努力剪出一些還能看得出來是什麼東東的小段落，想要再看更多，我也沒有啦。

說真的，在緩坡，速度實在很難衝上來，等衝上來也到底了，速度沒衝上來，又在那麼緩的坡，動作實在不太好做，所以大家習慣看重口味的動作，這影片就饒了小弟吧，這樣軟軟的動作，應該看不太習慣才是，等未來攝影師的攝影技術及功力提升後，或許可以來幾段比較像樣的影片。

對了，小弟也很愛看動作影片，如果方便的話，您也有影片可以分享嗎？

那個討論串我也有看過，集大家想法，很好呀。至於對PMTS的「Two Footed Release」看法，不妨就說說您的看法，也許有助釐清一些想法。「Release」中譯是釋放，不知您覺得是釋放什麼東西呢？為什麼要釋放，釋放後能做什麼？也許有其他的人能給點意見。

不好意思，我不會貼影片，所以請自行前往看影片囉。:)


http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2914799/8350285

[eLeung]

對了，小弟也很愛看動作影片，如果方便的話，您也有影片可以分享嗎？

不好意思，我不會貼影片，所以請自行前往看影片囉。:)
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/2914799/8350285

Norman, your turns are very nice. I am sure you put a lot of effort to achieve this standard. I am a lazy guy, so I do not have any ski video. :(


那個討論串我也有看過，集大家想法，很好呀。至於對PMTS的「Two Footed Release」看法，不妨就說說您的看法，也許有助釐清一些想法。「Release」中譯是釋放，不知您覺得是釋放什麼東西呢？為什麼要釋放，釋放後能做什麼？也許有其他的人能給點意見。


Maybe I quote the information from the link (http://www.harbskisystems.com/olb2.htm) , which is suggested by carver_hk-ski, as my reply. :)

Purpose: This action creates the release of the old stance ski as well as engaging the new stance ski.
Advantage: This action can engage your skis early, without twisting or sliding, so that your turns and speed are controlled.
Step:
1) From a stationary traverse position, with balance on both skis, release by flattening the downhill ski to the snow (roll it toward its little-toe edge). Continue to flatten that ski to the snow, and let the uphill ski follow. This movement of the downhill ski will cause both skis to aim slightly downhill, and they’ll begin to slide. Continue to lead the tipping with the downhill foot, and let the uphill foot lag slightly behind.

2) As the skis flatten and aim downhill, lighten or pick up the downhill ski - it becomes the free foot. As the skis slide downhill, keep the tail of the free ski lifted slightly, and continue to tip the free ski toward its little-toe edge. It can be helpful to think of pulling up on the arch of the free foot. This creates both the lifting and tipping that are needed. The tipping of the free foot engages the big-toe edge of the stance ski. Be passive with the stance ski - do not attempt to edge or steer it with the stance foot.

3) With continued tipping of the free foot, the stance ski will turn into, through, and then out of the fall line. As you pass through the fall line, lower the heel of the free foot. This will spread your fore/aft balance over the entire length of the stance foot - you should be aware of more pressure on the stance heel as you lower the free tail. The free foot remains light on the snow and tips toward the little-toe edge through the bottom of the turn, until the skis come to a stop. Even through the bottom of the turn, there is no effort of the stance foot to edge or steer the stance ski.

[norman]

eLeung：

謝謝您的稱讚，沒影片沒關係啦，未來有機會再請人幫拍囉，想要進步，拍影片自己看，自己想，也是一種不錯的方式，只是要如何欣賞自己好的，正確的一面，努力把那些好的保留下來，而不是一眛只挑自己的毛病，那反而會錯過自己精彩的一面，這僅是個人看自己影片的方法而已。

關於您的答覆，請先原諒小弟個人覺得的事，話雖直，但不妨想一下囉。

小弟覺得那不是您的答覆及想法，那只是Harb的教學文章，指導方法順序而已。假如您有辦法照單全做，您才能說那也是您的看法，如果不能做到的話，那也只是您認同、您個人覺得這方法說的很好、很清楚，是可以照著上面去執行練習，但這並不是您個人的想法及體會，甚至也許有可能您會曲解Hard的解說原意，就像大部份的人能照本宣科的去練習，但效果如何，恐怕只能普遍被認為想要進步快一點，是天賦的關係，跟教學無關，因為教學本身已經是個長年累積下來的教學體系，是經過嚴格認可及標準的，自然就不能有疑他的想法。這是「愚練」。

假如能透過文章、教學的參考，把自己的想法具體表達出來，即使有錯也沒關係，因為是自己的想法，所以能針對自己自發性的錯點去加以討論及改善，那才能成就您的學習效果，那些才會、也能深根扎入您的思考中心，只有自己真實的體會及深切的認知，才有可能讓自己自然且快速的進步，那就會變成您的風格及味道。

正如您也看過小弟的影片，小弟的動作不敢說是個標準（對一個目前只滑五十四天的人來講，應該還看得過去吧？），但也許您能感覺到一種味道，就是我在乘坐著雪板滑行，跟著雪板做一點點些微的互動，少少的動作，舒服輕鬆的駕駛雪板，而不是讓雪板拉著我走，也不是用強力的steering去控制雪板。事實上，在長滑道時，我大部份的滑行就是像這個樣子，只是把彎拉長加大，但不是加寬，加寬會妨礙到他人吧？這就是小弟個人喜歡的滑雪方式，您也一樣能找出您喜歡的方式而往那個方向走的。至於進步嘛，只要自己有深刻的體驗及正確的思考路徑，不想進步都難了——這便是小弟說過的「自動進步」。

所以，您的想法自己想，想好了，再去參考其他的文章及教學，有時有其他人適時的提點也是一種靈感，小弟只是就自己的想法提出來看看囉。

其實，以小弟的看法，學滑雪不應該鑽牛角尖，每個人的狀況跟想法或多或少都會有不一樣的地方，適時的參考，加入自己的想法，這樣應該會比較輕鬆也比較不會有挫折感。不是說哪個人的教學好，哪個人的教學值不值得學，而是自己願不願意學，願不願意枯燥的去練習再練習而已。

在網路上討論技術也是一種很好的學習方法，只是自己要學會分辨及實驗、練習，並加強自己的技術知識，雖然文字討論很麻煩，也可能很難解釋，但往往有時靈感就是這麼產生的。再不然就是拜某人為師，專心一致的學習及練習也不錯。


條條大路通羅馬嘛。


至於您提了那兩種影片，個人的小小想法，對adv的雪友來講，它是很容易就能做到的事，對inter的雪友來講，是個好的練習，但想滑出carving，可能很難從第一段去體會而進步到學會「Brushed Carving」，我可以肯定絕對不會是easy to be caving。所以小弟才會提，自學的話，努力學會及練會，及做出好的，對的大轉彎，會比較輕鬆容易一點的想法囉，因為幾乎所有的基本概念通通都在正確的大轉彎內就能學得到的，那也是我們比較容易觸及的部份。

唉，話講這麼多，會不會讓人討厭呀？:(

[skier]

唉，話講這麼多，會不會讓人討厭呀？:(

The answer is: 會

As eLeung said, "In this thread, I would prefer to get information and discuss with members about the PMTS method through the technical terms, namely Two Footed Release"

Do you fully understand what PMTS method is? If so, dwelt on that and not rattle on with your own 'technique' or thinking. You are doing again what you did at ski.com.tw

Norman, sorry that I have to say this. Your skiing after just 54 days is not bad (would like to see you more on steeper terrain), but your understanding of the skiing techniques are really not good enough to teach people. Especially when we are talking about PMTS.

[eLeung]

Norman, I respect your opinions and would suggest you may turn your view point to my end. I am now searching the PMTS information, so I do not have any opportunities to practise the techniques or attend the PMTS course. It is difficult for me to provide in-depth discussion on Two Footed Release. Therefore, I quoted the website information as my reply.

To me, skiing is one of leisure sports in my winter holidays. So I am not keen taking video to review my ski posture and techniques. I prefer to ski with my instructor during the ski holidays. The instructor teaches me some new stuff and also performs the role of mountain guide for introducing the wonderful aspect of the mountains. Gradually, my ski technique will be enhanced in this leisure environment.

Actually, the PMTS proposes a sequence of actions to address the deficiencies of the traditional methods. So I want to get more information about this. Perhaps, in future, I would discuss with you when I have a certain understanding on the Two Footed Release.

[carver_hk-ski]

To me, skiing is one of leisure sports in my winter holidaysCount me in. And Norman too! Its a great sport in great environment.

Actually, the PMTS proposes a sequence of actions to address the deficiencies of the traditional methods. So it is also regarded as movement based teaching method. However to understand the theory behind the movement is another matter. I was told by CSCF level 4 coach(no source will be identified) that the PMTS methodology is valid and is a summary of techniques being used by racing coach in training racers. He did a very good job of putting the techniques in recreational use. :)

[norman]

Skier：

您說的對，小弟確實不了解PMTS，他的書跟兩片DVD教學，我都看不懂。

這個討論串，我無意改變話題，也無意做任何註解，唯一有一點點意見的是，不能居居以Two Footed Release和Brushed Carving兩段影片來討論，可能會使人誤解，似乎讓人覺得，只要努力練習Two Footed Release，就能很快的就學會Brushed Carving，只是覺得這種想法有點可怕而已，正如您說的，應該求教於「his video lessons first」。

所以買書跟DVD教學顯然就是第一要面臨的問題，甚至買器材練習，這是最容易接近學習PMTS的方式，所以全文小弟是太囉唆了點，簡單的說，就是擇一而學，多加思考，就這樣而已。

下次改進。:o



eLeung：

先謝謝您善意的回應。:)


小弟現在也不是個練功狂，更沒有技術研究精神，僅是建議花費最小的精神，得到收益最大的成果而已，並無意改變您的話題及想法，如果有此感覺，小弟先道歉囉。這個話題小弟就講到此，希望不會造成大家的困擾。:)

[barry]

Learning without thinking and understanding is just copying. The main risk of copying is merely imitating the effects. In the bygone days, many people skied with their feet together (as opposed to legs together), imitating the appearance of accomplished skiers. The end result is not accomplishing good skiing, but an illusional appearance.

Comparing different schools and their approaches, together with an understanding of the forces involved as well as some understanding of bio-kinetics, and analysing the good and bad point of each system to form an overall view on “why this system is better than the others in this specific area”. Then one begins to learn to ski. This is no different from any other learning. Copying and imitating is not useless, and is actually very useful at the beginning, but they will only get you so far.

[carver_hk-ski]

Copying and imitating is not useless, and is actually very useful at the beginning, but they will only get you so far.Good point. I think this is the spirit of PMTS. One can ski well by just following all the PMTS books. Able to do BPST, carving, bumps, chutes. Then learn to ski. :)

[eLeung]

Comparing different schools and their approaches, together with an understanding of the forces involved as well as some understanding of bio-kinetics, and analysing the good and bad point of each system to form an overall view on “why this system is better than the others in this specific area”.

It is a very positive learning attitude. Did you study the Two Footed Release and Brush Carving? If so, would you share your understanding of these techniques to us?:)

[eLeung]

I was told by CSCF level 4 coach(no source will be identified) that the PMTS methodology is valid and is a summary of techniques being used by racing coach in training racers. He did a very good job of putting the techniques in recreational use. :)


Carver_hk-ski, I pretty sure you are a real HH's fans. So, you may share with us what the major benefits you have acquired from the HH-based approach.

[skier]

I have had the PMTS video when it first came out more than 15 years ago. Harold Harb is correct that it was the way racers skied before the introduction of shaped skis by lifting the non-stance ski and basically ski one-legged. Now the racers will load both skis much earlier in the turn. PMTS has since also modified their teaching (I think).

PMTS has its merits, but to say that everybody else is 'wrong' is a bit too much. The need for wedge turn taught by CSIA or PSIA has its reasons. Although even within both the CSIA and PSIA camps some instructors feel that the wedge turn will harm further development to better skiing (since both skis are on the inside edges).

However almost all ski schools in the world have not abandoned the wedge turn and the basic reason is that it is a secure way for BEGINNERS to control speed and come to a stop when needed, such as in a lift line.

Some people are very athletic but some people are not.

PMTS talks about the lifting of the non-stance ski which will trigger a chain of events that will automatically load the stance-ski and cause it to turn without pivoting.

Most intermediate skiers when doing the parallel skiing have a stem (a bit of a wedge). This happens during the transition from one turn to the next by having the weight on the downhill ski and trying to shift the weight to the uphill ski for the next turn.

PMTS will eliminate all that for a clean and early transition to the new stance-foot.

If you look at my animated gif photo, you will notice that I have a bit of divergence between the skis from one turn to the next. This is because I do use PMTS method of lifting the non-stance ski to initiate the next turn on gentler terrains.

Although I am CSIA, but I do sometimes ski with PMTS method. However I am not a student of PMTS and do not go into details of thier description of terminology. Basically what PMTS claims on 'pure carves' takes speed to achieve it.

[carver_hk-ski]

Carver_hk-ski, I pretty sure you are a real HH's fans. So, you may share with us what the major benefits you have acquired from the HH-based approach.I think I already admitted I am a big fans of HH. In fact he helped me a lot in understanding skiing in his forum. I think the major benefits I acquired is a general exposure to valid racing skills and therefore easier to understand what people are talking about in ski-forums. Shall I say, PMTS offered a very good start for me. I also claimed to be a PMTS student yet denied by Harald probably because he detected that I acquired some non-PMTS skill somewhere else.:)

[carver_hk-ski]

PMTS talks about the lifting of the non-stance ski which will trigger a chain of events that will automatically load the stance-ski and cause it to turn without pivoting..I believe you are talking about the phantom move. I was told its a passive pivoting at the pelvic joint(again pls dont tell HH). Its main purpose is to remove the blocking and thereby allow tipping, CA, CB, flexing, extension and body seperation all at once. What do you think with your understanding? :)

[eLeung]

Now the racers will load both skis much earlier in the turn. PMTS has since also modified their teaching (I think).


I have also realized that he does not mention the "Phantom Move" in the new book, Essentials of Skiing. Moreover, the focus is shifted to 6 major elements to illustrate his skiing techniques. The elements include Tipping, Flexing and Extending, Counterbalancing, Counteracting, The complete Upper Body, and Fore/After Balance.



PMTS has its merits, but to say that everybody else is 'wrong' is a bit too much.

Agree. In addition, based on HH's suggestion, I have a doubt that carving can be used for all situations. Maybe it works but the efficiency is another issue.



PMTS talks about the lifting of the non-stance ski which will trigger a chain of events that will automatically load the stance-ski and cause it to turn without pivoting.


It is a very simple statement to point out the core idea of the "Phantom Move". BTW, it is mentioned that you adopt Phantom Move on gentler terrains, how about on the steep terrains?

[eLeung]

Its main purpose is to remove the blocking and thereby allow tipping, CA, CB, flexing, extension and body seperation all at once. What do you think with your understanding? :)

Could carver_hk-ski provide further information about the blocking?

[carver_hk-ski]

Could carver_hk-ski provide further information about the blocking?To me blocking means an obstacle is getting on the way. In this context it simply means the inside leg is same length as the outside leg. If the inside leg is not kept light then it blocks all the other body parts from making the right manoever because you would ski mostly on your inside leg.
Btw. I have just uploaded my latest attempt of BPST to my profile. I set it up to 5 times slower than the actual skiing. One thing worth mentioning is the effortless skiing with BPST. Everything is automatic apart from the balance. You are welcome to check it out. :)

[eLeung]

In this context it simply means the inside leg is same length as the outside leg. If the inside leg is not kept light then it blocks all the other body parts from making the right manoever because you would ski mostly on your inside leg.

Btw. I have just uploaded my latest attempt of BPST to my profile.

Ok, I see. Where can I view your latest video?

[carver_hk-ski]

Ok, I see. Where can I view your latest video?Just click my profile. My icon is animated version of my version of less than correct BPST turn.

edit: just found that the icon in my profile is not working. So I put the icon in my profiles homepage.

[eLeung]

Just click my profile. My icon is animated version of my version of less than correct BPST turn.
.

Yes, I found it. However, I am not familiar with BPST turn. Would you briefly explain it or just give me a link for reference?

[carver_hk-ski]

Yes, I found it. However, I am not familiar with BPST turn. Would you briefly explain it or just give me a link for reference?I checked the online course I think the 'blue' lessons can give you a basic understanding of BPST.

http://harbskisystems.com/olb.htm

However if you are interested the books does provide lot more details. Going back to my turns. Its less than good BPST. I didn't have much flexing, no proper pole plant, insufficient pull back before engagement and a sign of sinful up-move as considered by PMTS. But already enable me to ski all mountain without much effort.

[skier]

It is a very simple statement to point out the core idea of the "Phantom Move". BTW, it is mentioned that you adopt Phantom Move on gentler terrains, how about on the steep terrains?

On steeper terrains, I ski the way that Warren Smith teaches. At my age, I am a cautious skier, enjoying the sport like driving a Porsche on steep winding road, controlled but not fast, so that not to cause injury to myself or others :)

I also think the 'Aspen Method' taught by John Clendenin is good for all mountain skiing for us recreational skiers.

[barry]

It is a very simple statement to point out the core idea of the "Phantom Move". BTW, it is mentioned that you adopt Phantom Move on gentler terrains, how about on the steep terrains?

My understanding of PMTS: the principal ingredient is tipping of the skis to their edge. Phantom move is the movement to initiate a new turn. Phantom move can be used on all terrain according to HH, although I have not the ability to ski that way down proper moguls. Brushed carving is used to control speed without pivoting the skis.

Is brushed carving the same as skidding? To me, their effects are very similar, if not the same. The difference is at the initiation. The PMTS way does not pivot the skis, so the edge are angled less to lose traction gradually. Pivoting is deliberate "rotating" of the skis and more (if not all) traction is lost right at the beginning. PMTS therefore might take a little less muscular effort but may carry more speed. If braking is of primary concern, pivoting might be more useful. To bleed off some speed, brushed carving is perhaps more suitable.

Bulletproof Short Turns are very much like slalom racing technique. Clearly we all want to get there in one big step, taking no more than watching a few clips on the net, practising for a run or two and "get there" totally. In reality, I suggest taking one step at a time.

[carver_hk-ski]

Is brushed carving the same as skidding? To me, their effects are very similar, if not the same. The difference is at the initiation. .My guess is the bottom half. The top half is just balancing. Because BPST's two basic ingredient is the effortless balancing on top and carving on bottom. Of cause the best thing to do is to ask pmts guys in his forum. While skidding is more like platforming on top and drive on bottom(check epicski for this one). Forgive me if my guess is too out of line. :)

[eLeung]

On steeper terrains, I ski the way that Warren Smith teaches. At my age, I am a cautious skier, enjoying the sport like driving a Porsche on steep winding road, controlled but not fast, so that not to cause injury to myself or others :)


I also tried this method and found that it is quite useful in terms of speed control and turn arc management.

On the other hand, maybe I do not have serious practice, I feel that it is difficult to make a jump for the turning initiative. So, I think I may not understand the critical actions of this method.

I also think the 'Aspen Method' taught by John Clendenin is good for all mountain skiing for us recreational skiers.
I do not have the information of the 'Aspen Method'. Would you give me a link for further study?

[eLeung]

My understanding of PMTS: the principal ingredient is tipping of the skis to their edge. Phantom move is the movement to initiate a new turn.

Agree. I also feel that my body weight will automatically shift to my stand foot when I perform the Phantom Move. In addition, I did an experiment that the turn arc was reduced if I further put my body weight on the stand foot.

[eLeung]

Going back to my turns. Its less than good BPST. I didn't have much flexing, no proper pole plant, insufficient pull back before engagement and a sign of sinful up-move as considered by PMTS. But already enable me to ski all mountain without much effort. Due to the resolution of the gif, I cannot see the action clearly. Could you send the video to me via PM?

Referring to the pull back, I would like to clarify the timing of this action. Normally, I try to pull back my free foot at the moment that is just before the high-C position. Is it a good/correct timing?


Is brushed carving the same as skidding? To me, their effects are very similar, if not the same. The difference is at the initiation. . My guess is the bottom half. The top half is just balancing. Because BPST's two basic ingredient is the effortless balancing on top and carving on bottom. That is the reason why I want to get more information about the Brushed Carving. Actually, I have the similar 'skidding effects'. Moreover, I have 'carving effects' at the moment that is just before end of the each turn. I also feel that the edges for the carving are close to the tail of the skis. Whether these effects are correct or not?

[carver_hk-ski]

Moreover, I have 'carving effects' at the moment that is just before end of the each turn. I also feel that the edges for the carving are close to the tail of the skis. Whether these effects are correct or not?To my understanding there should be edge grip by fall line. Your feeling sounds like a little bit late. I guess you might have a checking instead. But you know its hard to tell from feeling alone. :)

[skier]

I also tried this method and found that it is quite useful in terms of speed control and turn arc management.

On the other hand, maybe I do not have serious practice, I feel that it is difficult to make a jump for the turning initiative. So, I think I may not understand the critical actions of this method.


I do not have the information of the 'Aspen Method'. Would you give me a link for further study?


No need to make a 'jump turn' unless it is really STEEP. Warren Smith has another way for relatively 'steep' which was covered in:

http://www.hkssa.net/showthread.php?t=375

Aspen method:

http://aspenmethod.com

[eLeung]

To my understanding there should be edge grip by fall line. Your feeling sounds like a little bit late.:)

Thanks, carver_hk-ski, for your further clarification. And it is a good indicator for my reference.

[eLeung]

No need to make a 'jump turn' unless it is really STEEP. Warren Smith has another way for relatively 'steep' which was covered in:

http://www.hkssa.net/showthread.php?t=375


Thanks, Skier. This is another good suggestion from Warren Smith. Actually, I have this book and video but I forgot this technique. Perhaps, it is a good time to review the video and book again.


Aspen method:

http://aspenmethod.com (http://aspenmethod.com/)

Skier, you also lead me to know a new method for enjoying snow. The idea, Four Words, is quite new to me. I will read more information about this method in my leisure time.

At a glance, this method is quite elegant and effortless, especially in moguls. However, skiing on steeper terrain is not provided based on the videos. So, I cannot imagine how they can maintain their elegant posture on steeper terrains.

BTW, I have found an article to describe this method. Here is a link (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_85_4361948,00.html) for reference.

[carver_hk-ski]

Thanks, carver_hk-ski, for your further clarification. And it is a good indicator for my reference.
You are welcome. I m sure there are so much fun waiting for you in the pursuit of skiing. :)

[skier]

BTW, I have found an article to describe this method. Here is a link (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_85_4361948,00.html) for reference.[/FONT][/COLOR]

The link you provided does not work.

Here is an "overview" provided by Bode Klammer in EpicSki:

"At Camp with the Camps, we first introduce the concept of drifting on soft edges.

We learn to control our speed with turn shape avoiding the hard ridges and troughs.

While drifting we find early centering on the uphill foot (little toe edge).

We use the pole touch to cue tipping and committing our center of mass to our new intended drift (momentum). Pole touch is most functional when our torso is facing and connected with our path of momentum.

General debunking of mogul myths, or what we look for in all-mountain skiing:

1. We encourage a stance that is as narrow as functionally possible.
2. We look for hands held comfortably in front of the torso (as if holding a breakfast tray); not way in front or with hands held up (with poles in a vertical position).
3. We encourage a tall stance in the boot; not pressing or resting against the tongue of the boot.
4. Initially we encourage finding early balance on The up-hill ski; not relying and hanging onto the big toe edge of the downhill ski (unless for an Intended weighted release).
5. We teach ski snow contact with avalement, absorbing terrain with the whole body.
6. We encourage soft, that is progressive, edge awareness; not hard (or habitual) edges.
7. We use our four movements concept to create awareness of accurate syntax. For example; “re-balance” not “weight shift”; edges defined as big toe edge of downhill ski and the little toe edge of the up-hill ski; NOT left or right or inside/outside."

A full discussion on the subject in EpicSki:

http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56550

[carver_hk-ski]

Here is an "overview" provided by Bode Klammer in EpicSki:.........
General debunking of mogul myths, or what we look for in all-mountain skiing:

1. We encourage a stance that is as narrow as functionally possible.
.Here is a comment made by 4 times Olympian Martin Bell about the JC's narrow stance from the same thread.

Watching the John Clendenin video, I was reminded of these two threads:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56501
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56497
where the words "graceful" and "pretty" were mentioned. I can see how many people would watch that and use those adjectives to describe JC's skiing.

But beauty really is in the eye of the beholder; to my (ex-racer's) eye, keeping the stance so permanently narrow looks stiff and cramped.

However, it must be remembered that JC was a World Champion in freestyle, where a closed stance is absolutely essential for maximum points. So skiing that way is probably as natural to him as breathing to the rest of us.

As Weems said, there really is more than one "right way" to ski - it is a matter of opinion, not clearcut fact. Having said that, if a client came up and insisted that I teach him/her to ski like JC in that video, I suppose I would try my best to comply.

note: Weem is psia level 3 examiner.

[barry]

A narrower stance with a flexed inside leg knee allows more edge angle being developed and more loading on the outside leg's edge. Using a narrow stance still needs very flexible legs.

If one skis in a "stiff & cramped" way, he can't ski well whether he uses a wide or a narrow stance.

With a wider stance, the inside leg could inadvertently prevent the outside leg from being loaded properly.

Qualities such as "style", "gracefulness" "elegance" are a result of good skiing. These mystical qualities are not the causes of good skiing, but results.

[Mike]

The subject of "stance" had been discussed in the old "forum" and quite extensively in other ski forums elsewhere. I have re-post the subject under a new thread for further discussion.

[eLeung]

The link you provided does not work.


In that case, I place the link here again http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_85_4361948,00.html (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/recreation_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_85_4361948,00.html)


A full discussion on the subject in EpicSki:
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56550 (http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?t=56550)

Both the pros and cons of Aspen method were discussed in this thread. To understand the target market of this method, the following paragraph is extracted from the thread for reference.

The Camps are specifically geared for mature skiers wanting to ski bumps, crud, powder, and any expert-level terrain with as little effort as possible. “So much of the ski industry has been focused on carving and cliff jumping with the advent of shaped skis that we have forgotten the majority of skiers just want a safe, enjoyable experience, but still not be intimidated by more challenging terrain,” says Clendenin.

[eLeung]

A narrower stance with a flexed inside leg knee allows more edge angle being developed and more loading on the outside leg's edge. Using a narrow stance still needs very flexible legs....


Agree. The following paragraph is extracted from Clendenin's book to explain why he proposes the narrow stance in mogul skiing.

We encourage a stance that is as narrow as functionally possible. As we shall see, a fundamental flaw prevalent in mogul skiing—indeed, in all skiing—is the stem. A narrow stance helps banish the stem and, as a bonus, looks better than an artificial wide stance.

[eLeung]

The subject of "stance" had been discussed in the old "forum" and quite extensively in other ski forums elsewhere. I have re-post the subject under a new thread for further discussion.

Thanks, Mike. :)