A kid's carving turns

[eLeung]

The turns are so nice and I think the kid is taking lesson.:)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr3lv4ZhUhY&feature=channel

[skier]

He has definitely been trained for racing gates

[eLeung]

I was told that this kid has a back seat problem. What do you think?

PS. I guess this kid is a girl.:)

[stillskiing]

I don't think this kid has a "back seat" problem, but rather a the taught/coached technique. In my opinion, this skier was taught to ride the tail part of the ski, concentrated on the finishing of the turns, as the result, it appears to be sitting on the "heel". Watch the snow spray coming off the ski. It appears to be started back to-wards the toe piece(binding). The skier may not be pressuring the tips. Also the forward leaning angle of the boot, NO DYNAMIC movement. THe kid is not working the whole carving edge of the ski........

[eLeung]

I don't think this kid has a "back seat" problem, but rather a the taught/coached technique. In my opinion, this skier was taught to ride the tail part of the ski, concentrated on the finishing of the turns,

I see.:) What is the major advantage of this technique?

[skier]

I see.:) What is the major advantage of this technique?



One starts by engaging the front part of the skis and then move the CM back so the back end of the skis will bite to give a clean carve. If you stay with pressuring the front of the skis, the tails will skid.

Then one has to pull the skis back or move the CM forward so that it is over the skis again for the beginning of the next turn.

[eLeung]

One starts by engaging the front part of the skis and then move the CM back so the back end of the skis will bite to give a clean carve. If you stay with pressuring the front of the skis, the tails will skid.



Thanks, skier, for your further explanation.:) BTW, what is the best time for moving the CM back during a turn?

[HKS]

you mean back to the tail? That should be the end of phase 2 and beginning of phase 3 I guess. I am a suspended skier. Better let Skier explain.

[skier]

Thanks, skier, for your further explanation.:) BTW, what is the best time for moving the CM back during a turn?


Right when you are finishing a turn, you need to pull (shift) both skis back, aided by moving your body forward.

Able to move the skis back and forward so that the CM position is adjusted during a turn is important.

In racing, being able to carve the back end of the skis is important. However, in recreational skiing, I do not feel that we need to achieve that especially if we want to have controlled skidding to kill the speed. So it depends on your intent and purpose.

During a PDP, the then Grouse Mountain Ski School director, a CSIA level 4, told me not to move the CM back beyond neutral. I guess since we are not racing, moving too far back will make it difficult for us to recover to 'neutral' and then forward for the next turn.

Also when finishing a turn, your inside ski tip (uphill) is always ahead of the outside ski tip. This is called Sagittal (fore aft) split mainly caused by body anatomy. If the inside ski is too far forward, it will be very difficult for you to move your CM over 'on top' of the new 'turning ski' at the start of the next turn.... and thus you will be trying to 'catch up' and causing you to 'sit back'.

So you need to reduce the sagittal split coming out of the turn by pulling the uphill ski back more so than the old turning ski. Excessive sagittal split will also cause unnecessary counter rotation.

I understand all these, but I myself am still working on all these to improve my own skiing :)

[barry]

The shorter the the pitch of turning, the less tail is used. In slalom, tails are used sparingly. In speed events, tails are used in most turns.

On short slalom skis, the tails are very short anyway. So if one rides the tail in slalom, it is very easy to tip over the tail. Also, as the pitch of turns is so short, there is not enough time to recover from a "riding the tail" posture. There are exceptional skiers who have been able to ski slalom successfully using lots of tails. Bode Miller used to ski like that, but it is not the norm among most slalom skiers.

In recreational skiing on pistes (where there are other people), skiing slalom-like turns would often be as fast as one could ski. Using non-racing skis, skiing GS-like turns would generally be as quick as possible, often only achievable on sparsely populated pistes in good conditon. So there really is little need to ski using the tail aggressively and deliberately.

[eLeung]

That should be the end of phase 2 and beginning of phase 3 I guess. I am a suspended skier.

I guess so.:)

[eLeung]

The shorter the the pitch of turning, the less tail is used. In slalom, tails are used sparingly. In speed events, tails are used in most turns.


Barry, it is a good explanation showing how to apply different strategies in different situations. :)

[eLeung]

Able to move the skis back and forward so that the CM position is adjusted during a turn is important.

I do not feel that we need to achieve that especially if we want to have controlled skidding to kill the speed. So it depends on your intent and purpose.

I understand all these, but I myself am still working on all these to improve my own skiing :)


I am sure your understanding and performance are superior. :)

Yes, I am totally agree that pull both skis back is crucial. Do you have any suggested drills for pulling back skis back?

Quite often, many skiers have uncontrolled skidding. What techniques we could use to control skidding?

[skier]

Yes, I am totally agree that pull both skis back is crucial. Do you have any suggested drills for pulling back skis back?



On snow that can certainly be practiced consciously.

Without snow, the drills can be achieved by practicing on either the large or small deck at Slope8 very effectively. PM me with your telephone number.


Quite often, many skiers have uncontrolled skidding. What techniques we could use to control skidding?


Well, This involves quite a bit of learning from the basics

[GTFish]

I shall organise Slope8 sessions when I return in mid-April.

[Mike]

I shall organise Slope8 sessions when I return in mid-April.

Return in mid-April from another ski trip? :) :cool:

[eLeung]

On snow that can certainly be practiced consciously.
Without snow, the drills can be achieved by practicing on either the large or small deck at Slope8 very effectively. PM me with your telephone number.


Thanks, skier. I am more than happy to take lesson from you :), especially 30% discount of the summer package. :D:D:D I will send PM to you shortly.

[eLeung]

I shall organise Slope8 sessions when I return in mid-April.

Great! We will have a party at Slope8 this summer. :) Anyway, I know you are quite busy now so you may email me when you finish your work and come back from China.

PS. We may have a beer after the sessions (Of course, this is my real purpose) :D

[skier]

Thanks, skier. I am more than happy to take lesson from you :), especially 30% discount of the summer package. :D:D:D I will send PM to you shortly.


Got your PM.

My intention was to have a 'no-charge' session with you. But now since GTFish will organize one for the 'Shiga Kogen group', we will invite you too.

[gbertram]

Kids always appear to be sitting back - this is because of their anatomy. A child's centre of mass is higher than an adult - because their heads are larger compared with the rest of their body.

[eLeung]

My intention was to have a 'no-charge' session with you. But now since GTFish will organize one for the 'Shiga Kogen group', we will invite you too.

Thank you very much for your offer. I feel quite warm even in this difficult time of financial crises. :)

Good! I could take this opportunity to know other hardcore skiers.

Still, I am very happy to take lesson from you if you are available and willing to teach a beginner who is mid-age fat guy. :D

[eLeung]

Kids always appear to be sitting back - this is because of their anatomy. A child's centre of mass is higher than an adult - because their heads are larger compared with the rest of their body.

Thanks, gbertram "Ski God". :) There is a good point that I have never thought.

[skier]

Kids always appear to be sitting back - this is because of their anatomy. A child's centre of mass is higher than an adult - because their heads are larger compared with the rest of their body.


Hmm.... that could be just a perceived observation and not due to their head being proportionally bigger. Perhaps that is the way most kids ski by emulating racers.

An adult human head is about 8% of the whole body mass. And a kid's head could be 10%-- which will only raise the CM marginally higher -- should not be a cause of 'sitting back'. Actually, I feel, it should be the other way around considering the following:

"A person's center of mass is slightly below his/her belly button, which is nearly the geometric center of a person.
Males and females have different centers of mass- females' centers of mass are lower than those of males.
The average ratio of center of mass to height in females is approximately 0.543 and the average ratio of center of mass to height in males is approximately 0.560."

(Source: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/centerofmass.shtml)

Because the anatomy of the female (with relatively larger pelvis and hips), their CM is lower and more weight on the hind side which cause them to 'sit back', and thus lady boots have heel lifters and the 'center point' of lady skis for bindings installation is 1 to 2 CM ahead of men's.

[loislane]

If that kid has a back set problem I'd like to have it as well :rolleyes:!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6i9P4hM2VEg