Visualization

[Mike]

Read an interesting article on "visualization" by Lisa Mercer. The article talked about the use of visualization as a means of improving ski technique.

Note: Visualization is not a replacement for skills. Visualization can bring forth a new movement, or can take you down the mountain on a particular line, skiing in a particular manner, but only if the skills required to execute this goal have been developed.

http://www.examiner.com/x-758-Skiing-Examiner~y2008m8d27-Visualize-Whirled-Skis

"A 1984 survey of 235 Canadian Olympic athletes preparing for the Games found that 99 percent of them were using imagery. According to Rebecca Smith, a clinical research assistant in sports psychology at the U.S. Olympic Training center in Colorado, professional athletes spend a good deal of time visualizing their victory by telling their minds exactly what they want their bodies to achieve. Rumor has it that Jack Nicklaus never hits a shot without visualizing it first. Watch Olympic or World Class ski racers prior to a race. You will often see them with their eyes closed, moving their hands. These skiers are actually visualizing the racecourse and the moves they plan to make in order to win the race.

You don't have to be a World Class ski racer to use visualization. This powerful tool can even be used as a means of improving your basic ski skills. Begin by watching a video of your favorite skier. Some people find that it works best if you choose a skier of similar height and body type to their own, but that is not always the case. As you observe the skier on the video, imagine that your body becomes his or hers. In order to make the experience as real as possible, make use of all of your senses. What is the outside temperature? How does the snow feel? Can you hear the wind, or the crowds cheering you on? As you approach the bottom of the hill, can you smell the food that is cooking at the restaurant or cafeteria? (Avoid this image if your local resort features unsavory food!)

Creative visualization works had in hand with positive self-talk and affirmation. Too often, when we are skiing down a steep slope, we say to ourselves, "Don't fall!" Invariably, we end up falling. Why does this happen? While the brain does not have an image for the word "don't," it sure does have an image for the word "fall." So down we go. The next time you find yourself on a steeper slope, say to yourself, "Stand up," and see what happens.

In a 1992 Canadian Journal of Sport Sciences study of Olympic gymnasts, Michael Mahoney, Ph.D. and M. Avener, Ph.D. found that the more positive the self-talk, the easier it was for the gymnasts to achieve athletic excellence. In another study that was published in Cognitive Therapy and Research in 1977, the researchers discovered that athletes who made the U.S. men's gymnastics team were more likely to use positive self-talk than those who did not.

It is interesting to note that negative self-talk can have worse consequences than no talk at all. In 1987, psychologist and founder of rational emotive therapy Albert Ellis, Ph.D., found that irrational beliefs such as "If I don't do well, I'm an incompetent person," or "I must do well to gain the approval of others" could have an adverse affect on athletic performance.

Although we are still in the height of summer, it won't be long before ski season begins. Horst Abraham, the famous ski author and ski instructor trainer once made this remark: "You can learn to ski in the summer, and you can learn to swim in the winter." What he meant was that by using you imagination as you participate in other activities, you can find the connections that may enhance your ski skills. Play on the balance boards at the gym and imagine that you are carving perfect turns. When you go out for a run, choose a hill and run various turn shapes as you descend. Imagine that you are running on soft snow as opposed to hard concrete! You might be surprised to discover that your running becomes "softer," which in turn will be easier on your knees. In the meantime, as we await the snow, think lovely turns."


There is a however a distinct difference between "visualization" and "dreaming" or "illusion" :), so stop dreaming.

[norman]

看到此篇文章，諾曼提供一些個人學習ski的歷程。:D

1. 「想像訓練」必須建立在曾經滑過的「坡度」及「雪況」。

2. 「動作的優美進步」必須建立在個人最喜愛的模仿對象及自我拍片及檢討。

如1，沒經歷過的地形及坡度，在家裏利用家裏的地面或樓梯，是無法把眼前視幻想像成正在滑雪的地形，也就是無法做腦內模擬，如同我在做此練習及體會及思考物理應可能會影響的狀況加以推斷及下一步，就是看地板不是地板，而是看成雪道。

如2，想像跟現實還是有差距的，這點往往在看到自己拍出來的動作後，往往會發現原來自己的動作沒有想像中的好。選擇自己最愛的示範片模仿，選一個人就好了，不要選太多人，因為每個示範者的風格及方式都各有小差異，一次選太多的對象反而學不好。

所以想像訓練，除了要有實際曾遇過的雪道，及身體應該具有邏輯性的反應動作，把不合邏輯的動作去除掉，那想在一個無雪的夏天中進步，就不是難處了。

如果僅於夢想而已，連起身在家裏動一動，想一想的這種行為都懶得做，那就真的僅只是夢想而已囉。就算在戶外動一動、想一想也都是比不動還要來得實際多了。

不過，如果有人指點如何做，那摸索的時間一定會大大縮短，進步的效率一定會更高囉。

最壞的情況就是——「雙腳好癢呀」！！！:p

[Yogi]

How do I know what I vizualize is correct or not? :confused:

[carver_hk-ski]

How do I know what I vizualize is correct or not? :confused:The bad news is you don't. The good news is: (lets see what skidude(expert) have to say)

http://forums.epicski.com/showpost.php?p=945321&postcount=1

True Expert Skiers vs.You.

This is an area which very very few understand. I didn’t figure this out myself until about 2002.


You execute your technique perfectly.
No one does it as well as You do.
True world class experts don’t ski better then you.
True world class experts however do ski differently then you.
Understanding the difference is the first step to becoming a better skier
Having a workable realistic plan to bridge the gap from your technique to their technique is the fastest and most effective way to improve.

[Yogi]

The bad news is you don't.

I was skiing in Heavenly last season, and I visualized that I took a big tumble down Gunbarrow and I did. That was really BAD. :(

[barry]

Most recreational skiing enthusiasts dream of skiing like those on movies and WC competition seen on screens. People project themselves onto this kind of images and sometimes thought "yes, I can do that movement too" and thinking that one has "acheived" the same or similar sort of proficiency.

Another problem is just like Carver_hk-ski stated: unless you are filmed or coached, you don't really know what you did well or badly because everybody (likes to) thinks that he executes the technique perfectly.

While it is perfectly possible that on a public piste, you might be skiing a lot better than many, and you do know that you really are better many. Unless one has been lucky enough to have seen top skiing in person (i.e. not on a screen), one cannot truly comprehend how good those full-time athletes really are. What I mean "good skiing" here is not those from ski instructors, but world cup racers or similar. It may then only dawn on you that you are nowhere near as good as you thought. The comforting thought could be that the ski instructor who you thought is ski god turned out to be "not as good as I thought" compared to these atheltes.

Another way is to ski with someone who is really better than you so that while he is not coaching you, you do need to push yourself out of your normal comfort zone. That gets you improvement. You can hire an instructor but he is probably more interested in making you feel warm and fuzzy (and aftering your tipping money particualrly where tipping is socially & culturally embedded) rather than skiing at his proper way and pace.

[Mike]

Most recreational skiing enthusiasts dream of skiing like those on movies and WC competition seen on screens. People project themselves onto this kind of images and sometimes thought "yes, I can do that movement too" and thinking that one has "acheived" the same or similar sort of proficiency.

Difference between "Visualization", "Illusion" and "Dreaming". :);)

Another problem is just like Carver_hk-ski stated: unless you are filmed or coached, you don't really know what you did well or badly because everybody (likes to) thinks that he executes the technique perfectly.


True, because you cannot see what you are doing - right and wrong.

[carver_hk-ski]

I think there is a fine line between visualization & imagination. Let see what this fine line keeps one from the other.

imagination - yes, i ski well, no question asked. i can ski any slope provided the condition is not too harsh. at least mogul not too big.
- my last face plant was due to the binding release without a reason and i will fix my binding. tighten a little bit, perhaps.
- i know all the physics and biometrics, its a pleasure to watch my body parts workiing in perfect harmoni in my latest vid, though sometimes i lost gripping because its too icy. no one want to ski an icy slope anyway. i hate icy condition like many others do. Theres no point to ski an icy slope.
- i hate the guy i crashed into last fall. He had no reason to execute a hockey stop without a good reason. And he left no time for me to make my brake in time.

visualization - comparing the vids with WC skier I have insufficient inclination. Possible cause maybe insufficient energy transfer from last turns or fear? which one is it? ok. lets make some quick mental turns.
- the WC skier obviously bring up his thigh while i seat down instead. why? ...... maybe.... ok. lets do some mental turns and see if its reasonable. Sorry, still dont understand why. Lets check into more details and see what make the difference.

haha. just some wild dream :)

[B2L2]

I agree that visualization in help to get the very last bit out from the athletes. This has been well known in many different sports.

However, given the huge margin between us v.s. the WC skier, just stop day dreaming maybe even better. :)

- Brian

[carver_hk-ski]

I agree that visualization in help to get the very last bit out from the athletes. This has been well known in many different sports.

However, given the huge margin between us v.s. the WC skier, just stop day dreaming maybe even better. :)

- BrianI believe there is a huge difference between learning the right way and becoming a WC skier. The way WC skier ski give a good template to what is the right thing to do. Of course we mere mortal have to trim down the full set of skills and perhaps mimic some of the easier to learn smaller set.

[HKS]

I agree that visualization in help to get the very last bit out from the athletes. This has been well known in many different sports.

However, given the huge margin between us v.s. the WC skier, just stop day dreaming maybe even better. :)

- Brian

I absolutely agree. For WC skiers, they know what they should do and they know what to visualize. For normal skiers, we think we know what to do but in fact that's not true. Having said that, it's no harm for a beginner who is just doing straight line snow plough to visualize snow plough turn. Trying to simulate what WC skiers or expert skiers do is always the worst way.

[carver_hk-ski]

I remember there is a vid by WC skier Bode miler teaching the general public skier how to ski. To be more precise its should be carving skill(well, not sure if there r non carving version). While those not learning carving really should not attempt to visualise their skiing with Bode's vid, those set the heart to learn carving or edge oriented skiing should benefit from the whole set of knowledge and examples set by Bode. Again, of course, to visualize not imagine. There is a risk that people doing basic // or even dynamic // might thought that they were in fact doing carving. This kind of situation might fall into the category where he are not getting much benefit from his 'visualization'.:)

[norman]

小弟覺得，道理是相通的，學習的起步或是方式錯了、偏差了，自然會離學習競賽者的滑法會相形越遠。

個人覺得例如學習如果有分十階段，學到第二階段時就想要嚐試學第四階段是有很大的困難，如果想一次跳兩階段以上，困難度就會成等比級數更加大很多。所以如果走叉了，只會離未來正確的路途越遠，那自然就會認為根本就是不一樣的東西，自己走到另一條路了，離目標就等同多一條路，不是捷徑，就是永不交叉的路囉。

所以進步還是有階段性的，曉得捷徑的天才並不多，但如果搞懂自己所學的現階段，也願意有耐心學下一個階段，我相信進步的速度也不差。

我也會滑CARVING，在小弟看來，CARVING跟基礎技巧沒有多少差異性，只是從基礎技巧要前進到學會CARVING，的路程距離真的不小，一切看個人體會跟理解。學會正確的CARVING之後，自然就明白自己與競賽者有多少的差異距離了。

話說回來，可視化訓練也是要有正確的方式，而不是在家亂跳亂走一通就行了，一定要符合邏輯、人體工學、物理學下進行，才可能有所成長。如果只是僅於腦中想什麼做，而不去明白挖掘正確的道理，那自然是學得糊塗、練得糊塗，自然無法規劃出一條清晰的學習路線吧。

僅是個人的感覺看法吧。;)

[norman]

How do I know what I vizualize is correct or not? :confused:

雖然不知你是否是問我的方式，諾曼提供幾個小小的自我檢視方式，也是個人這三年來有感而發追加的心得及自我檢視的方法。:D

1.平衡——在做動作的時候，想一下在整個彎的動作下，哪裏最會失去平衡，只要有一點點會失去平衡的動作，那就是錯的。在滑雪的任何一個連續轉彎，都不應該失去平衡，每個點位置都應該是能穩穩站定而不失去平衡，這時站定的姿勢方法就很重要了，這樣在連續轉彎的每個位置要失去平衡也很難了。

2.動作運用的時機——看要學的影片注意示範者在什麼位置上有什麼動作，總不能示範者先up再點杖，自己偏偏就來個同時up跟點杖，或是先點杖再up吧？時常回去重新看示範片，一定會有所發現。模仿示範者的動作流程。

3.動作應符合人體工學——在做動作時，身體對於動作的反應，應該是舒服的，可能應該做某些因為沒做過的動作，而引起身體的協調性不習慣，但絕對不會拐手、拐腳引起肌肉拉傷或是關結疼痛。

4.外側腳的重量比例永遠比內側腳大——例如左彎時，重心腳一定是右腳，右腳則應該能自我感覺到在整個左彎下，身體的重量一直在右腳上，而不是重心一下在右腳，一下在左腳。初學者的重心比例最好先練「外側腳95%：內側腳5%」，習慣沒問題了，再漸漸依自己的能力向50%：50%前進。重心落點要壓對位置。

5.轉動雙腳——雙腳如開車的方向盤，開車左轉時，方向盤應該是左轉，絕對不會右轉或是不動吧？所以重心確定壓好在外側腳時，再轉動雙腳。重心都沒壓好，轉動雙腳也沒有用。有看過車子飛躍在空中時，轉動輪胎，車子就會改變方向的事嗎？我們是在現實世界，不是魔法世界呀。

6.路線策略——最好是努力先把大轉彎練好，應該了解大轉彎的標準路線，及應該有多大的彎，初學者最大的問題就是很難把轉彎做大做圓。大轉彎的大圓，個人覺得一個轉彎差不多在十五公尺左右的距離。所有的進階動作基礎都在正確的大轉彎裏面。

7.Angulation——上半身與下半身的彎曲成角，這個會依坡度、速度……等離心力跟向心力而有所改變夾角大小，個人覺得要體會這種感覺，騎摩托車是最容易體會的。而在自我檢視時，可以站著用腳刀站好做出彎曲成角的姿勢，又不會失去平衡往左右倒的動作，那動作通常八九不離十的是正確的平衡感。如果能在不失去平衡再加一點以腰力去轉動雙腳，那就更棒了。

8.最後——上雪場練習幾天後，再請他人幫你拍動作影片，看看自己跟示範影片差異有多少，或請專家幫你看影片指出你的問題點，再努力自我修正出更標準正確的動作，我相信會更快及更正確的找出什樣才是正確動作的感覺出來。

[carver_hk-ski]

2.動作運用的時機——看要學的影片注意示範者在什麼位置上有什麼動作。Timing here is what I currently after by comparing with carving experts. Its very difficult to get any success. But who cares, I don't have a time table anyway. :)

[norman]

Timing here is what I currently after by comparing with carving experts. Its very difficult to get any success. But who cares, I don't have a time table anyway. :)

在那幾條裏面，我就有提到要先從大轉彎學好，連大轉都沒練出個正確來，就直接想模仿CARVING，或是小轉...等高級動作，這不就等於是越級挑戰嗎？那當然阻力會成等比級數的更加困難了。

以上那些的個人檢視條文，皆以大轉彎為基礎，進階為發展等方式。而我說的大轉正確動作，至少要跟影片示範者幾乎一模一樣(義式影片那種大轉彎)，才算是完成，而不是覺得自己能做轉大彎就算是可以了，這兩者之間差很多呢。:D

所以TIMING也是一樣，總要先把基礎底子的TIMING先打穩，再逐一增進更困難的TIMING才是最快的方式，不然就先卡在「平衡」這一種會一直有極大的挫折感了。就如CARVING要求的平衡性，肯定是比大轉彎高很多的，連大轉彎的平衡性就搞不定，就想要直接挑戰CARVING，那困難度是一定想像的到的，最後也很可能缺乏基礎的平衡動作，很容易變成四不像的動作耶，最後還是得從大轉彎從頭學起，把過去沒練到的也得補回來，這樣所花的時間反而會更多吧？那時心裏的煎熬應該蠻大的。

所以學習也是要衡量自己的技術基礎到哪種程度，不然自己正在越級挑戰而不自知，豈不是誤了自己呢。:)

個人的感想是，完成義式那種大轉彎，後面的進階技巧就變得很簡單，一點難度都沒有了，因為基礎都是一樣的東西。:D

[carver_hk-ski]

在那幾條裏面，我就有提到要先從大轉彎學好，連大轉都沒練出個正確來，就直接想模仿CARVING，或是小轉...等高級動作，這不就等於是越級挑戰嗎？那當然阻力會成等比級數的更加困難了。

以上那些的個人檢視條文，皆以大轉彎為基礎，進階為發展等方式。而我說的大轉正確動作，至少要跟影片示範者幾乎一模一樣(義式影片那種大轉彎)，才算是完成，而不是覺得自己能做轉大彎就算是可以了，這兩者之間差很多呢。:D

所以TIMING也是一樣，總要先把基礎底子的TIMING先打穩，再逐一增進更困難的TIMING才是最快的方式，不然就先卡在「平衡」這一種會一直有極大的挫折感了。就如CARVING要求的平衡性，肯定是比大轉彎高很多的，連大轉彎的平衡性就搞不定，就想要直接挑戰CARVING，那困難度是一定想像的到的，最後也很可能缺乏基礎的平衡動作，很容易變成四不像的動作耶，最後還是得從大轉彎從頭學起，把過去沒練到的也得補回來，這樣所花的時間反而會更多吧？那時心裏的煎熬應該蠻大的。

所以學習也是要衡量自己的技術基礎到哪種程度，不然自己正在越級挑戰而不自知，豈不是誤了自己呢。:)

個人的感想是，完成義式那種大轉彎，後面的進階技巧就變得很簡單，一點難度都沒有了，因為基礎都是一樣的東西。:DThank you for your advise. But really i don't like the italian style very much. :)

[norman]

Thank you for your advise. But really i don't like the italian style very much. :)

正常之情，風格是個人喜好的問題，就像我也不愛Harb系統的滑法風格。但我相信學習多看多聽也不錯，也許有意外收獲，但想學那一種風格或是哪一種特定人物的技術，初期學習單一就好，畢竟條條大路通羅馬，到最後不必拘泥哪種風格，只有自己喜歡、愛用、安全就好囉。:)

[Mike]

正常之情，風格是個人喜好的問題，就像我也不愛Harb系統的滑法風格。但我相信學習多看多聽也不錯，也許有意外收獲，但想學那一種風格或是哪一種特定人物的技術，初期學習單一就好，畢竟條條大路通羅馬，到最後不必拘泥哪種風格，只有自己喜歡、愛用、安全就好囉。:)

Norman - Well said. :) ;)

[carver_hk-ski]

Norman - Well said. :) ;)Just before you aware he is a master of theories. :)

[norman]

Just before you aware he is a master of theories. :)
Carver兄：

雖然我不太了解理論跟風格有什麼關係，就像如果有些人覺得某些人的示範動作比其他的好或是強，這應該是個人喜好的問題才是，或是自己慧眼識英雄？;)

當理論變成行動結果時，就不再是理論，更何況我從來不認為自己在講理論的東西，事實上，也因為那些個人學到及理解到的心得，在其他人的眼裏只是理論，對我而言確實是我進步前或後都是一致的心得。就如同這一篇討論串，我就不覺得我在講理論了，因為我確實是這樣子進步上來的。如果今天我連點杖或大轉彎都懶得學，直接就學carving，那我一定會寫說，想學哪一種階層的技巧，直接學就好了，每個技術跟其他的不同類別動作都是不一樣的，不如一開始就學自己認為最帥的動作就好，沒必要浪費時間從最簡單的練起，只要練會高級技術，那些較簡單的技術自然就學會了，但這您也明知不可能的呀，不然你的小轉也應該會carving後，馬上就能學會小轉了，畢竟carving還比小轉難一點點吧？就像你現在看的我的大頭照，我只努力在大轉彎上，我的小轉自然就跟上來了，根本就不用花心力去學，在雪場上，我大多八成以上都是在滑大轉，反而小轉很少在滑及練，carving就練得更少了，所以才說基礎正確的搞懂了，就幾乎樣樣通了，但這是我個人的狀況就是了。:)

不管你覺得我說的是不是理論的東西，但你現在的動作，確實是缺少一個基礎極重要的timing，這點我也很早就跟你說了，即使最近另一個大師也跟你講了同樣的問題，那我的是理論，那位大師說的跟看的跟我點給你的一模一樣，那他也是理論嗎？那就當作我是瞎貓碰到死耗子囉。:p

不過，我還是不覺得自己在講理論的東東啦。:D

[carver_hk-ski]

Carver兄：

雖然我不太了解理論跟風格有什麼關係，就像如果有些人覺得某些人的示範動作比其他的好或是強，這應該是個人喜好的問題才是，或是自己慧眼識英雄？;)

當理論變成行動結果時，就不再是理論，更何況我從來不認為自己在講理論的東西，事實上，也因為那些個人學到及理解到的心得，在其他人的眼裏只是理論，對我而言確實是我進步前或後都是一致的心得。就如同這一篇討論串，我就不覺得我在講理論了，因為我確實是這樣子進步上來的。如果今天我連點杖或大轉彎都懶得學，直接就學carving，那我一定會寫說，想學哪一種階層的技巧，直接學就好了，每個技術跟其他的不同類別動作都是不一樣的，不如一開始就學自己認為最帥的動作就好，沒必要浪費時間從最簡單的練起，只要練會高級技術，那些較簡單的技術自然就學會了，但這您也明知不可能的呀，不然你的小轉也應該會carving後，馬上就能學會小轉了，畢竟carving還比小轉難一點點吧？就像你現在看的我的大頭照，我只努力在大轉彎上，我的小轉自然就跟上來了，根本就不用花心力去學，在雪場上，我大多八成以上都是在滑大轉，反而小轉很少在滑及練，carving就練得更少了，所以才說基礎正確的搞懂了，就幾乎樣樣通了，但這是我個人的狀況就是了。:)

不管你覺得我說的是不是理論的東西，但你現在的動作，確實是缺少一個基礎極重要的timing，這點我也很早就跟你說了，即使最近另一個大師也跟你講了同樣的問題，那我的是理論，那位大師說的跟看的跟我點給你的一模一樣，那他也是理論嗎？那就當作我是瞎貓碰到死耗子囉。:p

不過，我還是不覺得自己在講理論的東東啦。:DI believe being a master of theories is not a bad thing. Though it sounds better to be called by master of skiing, which requires some very strong prove. You probably not aware that even PSIA level II is being labeled as intermediate in the other forum. It is evident that you have made some significant progress by yourself and is to be respected. I respected you too. However I wish my skiing is not to be brought up to the table for discussion. I have a long list of things suggested to me and is waiting to get improve anyway. :)

[carver_hk-ski]

For those who pursue carving. Here is some interest turns you can use to visualize your skiing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMcNWgiT_A

[norman]

I believe being a master of theories is not a bad thing. Though it sounds better to be called by master of skiing, which requires some very strong prove. You probably not aware that even PSIA level II is being labeled as intermediate in the other forum. It is evident that you have made some significant progress by yourself and is to be respected. I respected you too. However I wish my skiing is not to be brought up to the table for discussion. I have a long list of things suggested to me and is waiting to get improve anyway. :)

先請您原諒我，我無意討論您的問題。我僅是提出個人對「理論」兩個字的看法。也針對我所學的方式的反方向進行來提點，這點不是針對你的問題，就周邊的雪友，我看過的就有很多在基礎沒有搞定，就一直要猛練小轉跟carving，看了快三年了，只是不見有多少效果，只一眛說難呀難呀，我到現在都還搞不懂難在哪裏。

話說回來，小弟也不喜歡聽到「理論大師」這幾個字呀，看了也有點受不了，沒學過我說的方式就下這幾個字的論點，不覺得有點傷人嗎？:(

就如同你不愛義式影片的動作，這個放在心裏就好了，不用講出來，聽起來也挺怪的。那我說harb滑法比義式的還難看，那您聽了也會受不了吧？所以才說風格各異，這完全是個人喜好問題，何必比較呢？:o

[carver_hk-ski]

話說回來，小弟也不喜歡聽到「理論大師」這幾個字呀，看了也有點受不了，沒學過我說的方式就下這幾個字的論點，不覺得有點傷人嗎？:(No offence, really. Just that you really have the ability to talk things to theoretical level. More often then not many fundamental aspects or essentials are called for in the discussion. Honously many are over my head. You have a good name for it? :)

[norman]

No offence, really. Just that you really have the ability to talk things to theoretical level. More often then not many fundamental aspects or essentials are called for in the discussion. Honously many are over my head. You have a good name for it? :)

不好意思，我也想不出好詞來。:D

其實我是覺得我不是在講理論是有原因的，因為我講的幾乎是以「自己可以明顯感覺得到的感覺」、「在對的時間點要做出對的要點動作姿勢」、「要求平衡第一、感覺至上、人體工學正常體位為輔」大概是類似這樣的東西，完全談不上物理理論的東西，當然，這些要先架設在正確的路線計劃及正確的動作時機點上，這樣才算成立。

就像我以前跟你提過的「每個轉彎有個姿勢歸零的時機點動作」，這個太難形容了，只能用我說的方式是最容易體會的到的，只要完成這我說的這個要點，以後其他的動作就隨便你練也不會走偏了。這可算是理論，也可不算是理論，但它確實是平衡的第一個最重要的要點，偏偏這個動作只能用大轉彎來練，沒它，你就會發現拍起來的動作，上半身除了會容易左右晃之外，身體的重心還會容易往圓心偏傾。沒它，雙小腿就會容易呈A字。但如果你說這是理論，我又覺得不算是耶。我只是覺得這只是一個最原始的自然平衡方式，本來就應該要的，因為所有的技術的平衡點都是從這一個原點出發練出來的，它很好練，但很難形容原因及為什麼。

不過你說的也對，這些東西用講的還真不容易讓人懂耶，所以後來我就不講了。:p

但我還是不覺得自己會講理論就是了，再說，有人認為我把技術看得太簡單，太單純化了，但我反而是覺得很多人把這技術搞得太複雜，這樣反而不利學習，技術還是要用直覺式學習法，才是最單純而沒有負擔的，至少我這麼覺得啦。:)

在這裏，我只是提有方法及有效的可視性練習是在平常無雪時是有效的。其他的就不敢講太多囉。希望這些不要跟理論扯上關係，因為理論性的東西很容易不切實際。;)

[carver_hk-ski]

但我還是不覺得自己會講理論就是了，再說，有人認為我把技術看得太簡單，太單純化了，但我反而是覺得很多人把這技術搞得太複雜，這樣反而不利學習，技術還是要用直覺式學習法，才是最單純而沒有負擔的，至少我這麼覺得啦。:)。You are probably a very endowed person, however its always better to prove yourself with results. some people prove by credentials like level x instructor or level x coach. some people write a book, well you have a serious of electronic lecture. Of course you have your animated photo, which looks like very dynamic. If you can come up with your short radius clean ski track(as a result of carving) its even better. :)

[norman]

If you can come up with your short radius clean ski track(as a result of carving) its even better. :)

我覺得這並沒有什麼意義。

能刻出兩條線出來，是蠻不錯的，但不能代表什麼，因為我曾在雪場上坐纜車時，往下看，也看過有人carving下山，兩條很清楚乾淨的線，但是動作卻有問題，姿勢也不漂亮，那這個在練習carving的滑雪者是正在做正確的動作嗎？也看過有人可以在很慢的慢速下滑出兩條乾淨的刻痕，那這個carving不是有加速的功能嗎？為何滑出乾淨的刻痕，速度還是如此慢呢？

再說，你之前也說過義式影片示範的carving是失敗的，就只因為沒有兩條你認為應該連續的刻痕，我這次實話實說，也許有不少人不認同我的看法，但是真的好的carving，不是只看那兩條乾淨的刻痕，如果只往這個角度去鑽牛角尖，會容易錯過更精彩的carving技巧喔。所以你都不認同義式示範片，那你就更不能理解我說的了，不是嗎？我只能說，只要這裏有人能滑出進階級的併腿轉（argento avanzato），自然就會跟我的看法差不多囉，carving的重點不只在看那兩條乾淨的刻痕。


不知這樣說起來，會不會太玄呢？:D

[carver_hk-ski]

但是真的好的carving，不是只看那兩條乾淨的刻痕I merely want to point this out. Because you claim that you can do carving very well, this is a minimum prove, whether you are carving at a very basic level or a WC level. of course this is not a challenge, just one non-theoretical way to let you prove yourself. If you didn't photo your ski track, no-problem, next time. :)

[norman]

I merely want to point this out. Because you claim that you can do carving very well, this is a minimum prove, whether you are carving at a very basic level or a WC level. of course this is not a challenge, just one non-theoretical way to let you prove yourself. If you didn't photo your ski track, no-problem, next time. :)

我還不認為我滑得好，但還記得我說過，我幾乎不練carving的，佔我滑雪時間看有沒有1%。:)

但不管你看得懂不懂，我最接近的就是這張囉，這旗門不適合大人滑carving，我硬是把它滑出來，有機會你如有看到這種三到六歲左右的小朋友在玩的旗門，自己試一下這種旗門前後右右間距不到四公尺內的距離試試看你的carving就知道囉，反正看到就玩一玩，還是很有趣的。不過你還是可以看一下我左彎藍色旗門這邊的腳下雪線，至少它還能呈出個C線出來。:)

不然想要等我下次拍，可能是五年後的事了，就請你忍耐一下你的眼睛囉。:p

[carver_hk-ski]

我幾乎不練carving的，佔我滑雪時間看有沒有1%So the logic is your training was ultra effective & efficient. The maths goes like this. Suppose your skiing days is 100 days, 1% means 1 day. In just 1 day (usually means just a few hours instead of 24 hours here) you are capable of carving and that it very much resembles that of the italian argento avanzato. The only reason you can made this achievement is that your theory is very sound thats why I call you a Master of Theories. Its never an offense, its a proven honor. To get a more solid credential of other masters you probably need to hand out some hard prove. :)

[Mike]

So the logic is your training was ultra effective & efficient. The maths goes like this. Suppose your skiing days is 100 days, 1% means 1 day. In just 1 day (usually means just a few hours instead of 24 hours here) you are capable of carving and that it very much resembles that of the italian argento avanzato. The only reason you can made this achievement is that your theory is very sound thats why I call you a Master of Theories. Its never an offense, its a proven honor. To get a more solid credential of other masters you probably need to hand out some hard prove. :)
There is really no point to argue whether one can carve or one has too many theories. OK you can carve better than I do, so what? You have all made your point here.

I understand Harald Harb have never been critical of Lito's skiing, why? Not because Lito's carving technique is the same as Harb, but because Lito and Harb are friends. :rolleyes:

[carver_hk-ski]

There is really no point to argue whether one can carve or one has too many theories. OK you can carve better than I do, so what? You have all made your point here.

I understand Harald Harb have never been critical of Lito's skiing, why? Not because Lito's carving technique is the same as Harb, but because Lito and Harb are friends. :rolleyes:I don't understand why Harald got pulled in. Of course carving doesnt mean everything. Perhaps you are thinking his school develop all skills based on carving? Or because I m being labeled as PMTS? Hononously I was denied by Harald as PMTS student in his postings. No harm done though. Anyhow I guess the point I was making over the last few posting is to let master norman see his skiing ability logically rather then spending all his effort in teaching me. :)

[Mike]

I don't understand why Harald got pulled in

He was quoted because he is known to be critical of others - that's all. :D
Anyway, this thread is about "Visualization", not PMTS nor carving theories.

[jackwan]

Mike, I believe you are thinking too far ahead. The article

http://www.examiner.com/x-758-Skiing-Examiner~y2008m8d27-Visualize-Whirled-Skis

you are referring to is way beyond a recreational skier can comprehand. Actually, I cannot understand what they do and how they acheive their goal. Betwen Olympic champs and the average skier Joe, the gap is too wide to cover and it is overwhelming. :)