Chinese training material

[carver_hk-ski]

By Chinese Ski Association. Looking forward to get a copy.

http://skiing.sport.org.cn/headpage/dnews/2005-12-30/77805.html

[Kittyson]

Check it out here, only rmb28 !!!
http://www.amazon.cn/mn/detailApp?qid=1221211518&ref=SR&sr=13-1&uid=168-3907747-1893815&prodid=zjbk235174

[carver_hk-ski]

Check it out here, only rmb28 !!!
http://www.amazon.cn/mn/detailApp?qid=1221211518&ref=SR&sr=13-1&uid=168-3907747-1893815&prodid=zjbk235174
thanks. :)

[skier]

Although 单兆鉴 is China's first Champion and very experienced by China's standard, yet in the international arena, he cannot be of any material significance, and will probably rank well over one hundred in any WC competition.

Not to look down on him or China in ski racing, but really it is not 'our' sport and will probably never be.

And I believe all their training materials are taken a little from here and there - from other countries.

China has been doing very well in the Aerials. Why? Because Aerials are more of acrobatic and gymnastic moves -- and we are good at that -- and can be trained without being on the snow all the time

In ski racing, one needs, may be 300 days of training per year which needs the support of our country, and be trained overseas. And I doubt China is willing to take that on knowing that it is almost imposible to win without years and years of 'investments'. Money better spent in some other sports.

Look at Japan, they have been in racing for many many years and with over 500 ski resorts, yet in WC racing they are seldom in the top positions.

[carver_hk-ski]

skier - I think the advantage of using Chinese instruction material is like hiring Cantonese speaking ski instructor. I understand the performance of Chinese ski racing athlete is disappointing. After all they r in the World Club ranking, which is far from the general public even at the lowest ranking. And like you said the general public don't need racing skill anyway. What left to consider is whether they know how to ski the way recreational skier ski. And even if they know, do they know how to teach. Is there some myth hidden behind teaching & the skiing itself?
I ll have a few question to ask. Why we have more confident in foreign ski schools even we only looking for some very basic skill? Is it because of their athlete's performance? This getting funny because athelets win by perfect carving and the general public don't ever need to carve at all. :)

[skier]

I ll have a few question to ask. Why we have more confident in foreign ski schools even we only looking for some very basic skill? Is it because of their athlete's performance? This getting funny because athelets win by perfect carving and the general public don't ever need to carve at all. :)

We are more confident in foreign ski schools or techniques because these nations have had skiing for many many years and these foreign ski schools have experience in teaching hundred thousands of students.

Different nations have different styles, and that is why I said that it will be good to watch the 2007 Interski DVD to see the styles of different countries.

I saw you mentioned that you do not like the Italian style, but Italy has produced some of the world's best racers.

Ski racing is like Formula 1 car racing, it takes special techniques and cars to negotiate the special race course in the fastest time/speed. While recreational skiing is like driving a 'normal' car negotiating the streets.

[jackwan]

skier,
I am not sure I agree with your observation on China will never be a ski racing giant. I believe if Chinese put in enough energy we will. Certainly, right now China does not have the environment it should to produce racing champs, but that does not mean it will never.

Look at the Summer Olympics, China produced the most gold medal champs ever in 2008, while 20 years ago, they had none (or very few). The most impressed gold I admire is not the diving nor ping pong, but the swards. That is a typical Western Europe game, yet China got a gold. I have seen the medal winner's interview on TV, and I am proud of his achievements.

If Chinese put in more time and efforts in Winter Olympics, they will win, their way. I think if one day the Winter Olympics come to China, there will be enough incentives for Chinese to win medals. Who knows, maybe there will be a downhill goid in the wind, or a gold in hokeys.

[carver_hk-ski]

We are more confident in foreign ski schools or techniques because these nations have had skiing for many many years and these foreign ski schools have experience in teaching hundred thousands of students.Well, like space technology, they don't have to invent it, they just learn it and make it theirs. After all I don't think each country develop their own teaching system without ever looking at others. The smarter people like the author should be able to do this.

I saw you mentioned that you do not like the Italian style, but Italy has produced some of the world's best racers.My favourite skiing method is carving and by italian style I m refer to the link refered lately by master norman. I actually check what commend racing expert would say and believe him. If you like the full comment page me. extract below from msrt:

http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_liv=2&am...lli=&tip=21 (http://www.amsao.it/main.php?curr_liv=2&curr_id=68&prec_liv=1&prec_id=31&lang=it&sotto_livelli=&tip=21)
It is important to understand that in the free environment you should see the best possible turn for any system form. In that video that turns should be and could be pure arced turns with very little displacement of the ski, even easier if the skier used the whole ski throughout the entire turn rather than moving through the ski and sinking on the tails.

Hey, anybody in here recognize what I'm referring too? [/URL]http://forums.modernskiracing.com/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif (http://forums.modernskiracing.com/style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif) [URL="http://forums.modernskiracing.com/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif"]http://forums.modernskiracing.com/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif (http://forums.modernskiracing.com/style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Again, not slamming the skiing or the system, just nothing new or ground breaking, rather archaic IMHO. I only said I don't like it I didn't say its useless. Its a world of difference here.

If we go back to the thread I guess we are not talking about state of the art racing method or anything like that. We are just talking about moving down the mountain with proper modern technique safely. Its really hard to believe the author don't have the ability to put up something useful. :)

[skier]

skier,
I am not sure I agree with your observation on China will never be a ski racing giant. I believe if Chinese put in enough energy we will. Certainly, right now China does not have the environment it should to produce racing champs, but that does not mean it will never.

Look at the Summer Olympics, China produced the most gold medal champs ever in 2008, while 20 years ago, they had none (or very few). The most impressed gold I admire is not the diving nor ping pong, but the swards. That is a typical Western Europe game, yet China got a gold. I have seen the medal winner's interview on TV, and I am proud of his achievements.

If Chinese put in more time and efforts in Winter Olympics, they will win, their way. I think if one day the Winter Olympics come to China, there will be enough incentives for Chinese to win medals. Who knows, maybe there will be a downhill goid in the wind, or a gold in hokeys.

Well, fencing (in fact it is men's Sabre that China won a Gold - he ranked 10th in the world before this Olympics) is like ping pong and diving and gymnatics, you can train without the need of racing terrains and with many days of snow, and also need to go to Southern Hemisphere for additional training during summer months if one is to be able to contend on the top.

Fencing, as you have mentioned, is used to be dominated by the Europeon countries, but now you see that U.S. has won all the 3 medals (Gold, Silver, Bronze) for women's Sabre. When I was in the Stanford University Vasity fencing team in the '60s, the U.S. has never been in the Olympic finals for Foil, Epee or Sabre - now due to training and more effort on the sport, the women's Sabre had a clean sweep on the medals

BTW, Hong Kong has won many fencing medals in the past in the Paralympics.

Yes, China can produce good racers for WC competitions if our country is willing to fund the money for 300 days of training a year overseas. I just doubt China will do that.

Besides, you need to have a large general population that starts racing at a very young age.

[Mike]

I think the advantage of using Chinese instruction material is like hiring Cantonese speaking ski instructor.

Personally, the problem I found with the Chinese instructional material and Chinese speaking coaching is the Chinese translation of the technical terms which to me is very hard to understand. This applies to other sports such as golf, sailing, fencing etc etc. where some of the terms are not even English originated.
If the instructor is a mandarin speaker .... Oh dear :confused: :eek:

Good instructions must be clear and easy to understand.

[carver_hk-ski]

Personally, the problem I found with the Chinese instructional material and Chinese speaking coaching is the Chinese translation of the technical terms which to me is very hard to understand. This applies to other sports such as golf, sailing, fencing etc etc. where some of the terms are not even English originated.
If the instructor is a mandarin speaker .... Oh dear :confused: :eek:

Good instructions must be clear and easy to understand.I have experience with learning skating with Chinese book. Yes, technical terms is somewhat a problem. Initially there are some guess work to do. But still the importance is whether the book is teaching a valid and effective method. I haven't got the book yet. Just found its content. Some of the more difficult technical terms might look like below. :
http://www.amazon.cn/mn/detailmore?showtype=3700&ref=SR-DT&prodid=zjbk235174
(五)双板平行转弯的注意事项
(六)精彩的双板平行摆动转弯
二十四、卡宾转弯技术的新特点
I believe 卡宾 means carving here. Not sure what is 平行摆动 though. I guess the context will probably tell.

Any here is the promise? :)
4．滑雪者一般经过一周的练习，便可以入门；经过一个月的练习，就
可以在茫茫雪原初显神通；如果经过一冬的系统磨炼，就会像雪山林涛中的
银鹰展翅飞翔了。

[Mike]

I have experience with learning skating with Chinese book. Yes, technical terms is somewhat a problem. Initially there are some guess work to do. But still the importance is whether the book is teaching a valid and effective method.


Another problem I have is my understanding of "simplified" Chinese writing. :D
Importance is understanding, not guessing. :rolleyes:

[carver_hk-ski]

Another problem I have is my understanding of "simplified" Chinese writing. :D
Importance is understanding, not guessing. :rolleyes:I must admit language is an issue. But the same hit me when learning in English. Eg, it take very long time for me to understand inclination. Yes the English is quite plain but what goes with it is well beyond the superficial meaning. If I take a lesson from a Cantonese speaking instructor, he would probably invent another term for inclination. Yet he probably have a harder time to teach me what it really means and how to incorp into my skiing, what does it do, what to be careful, which muscle group to employ, when should i start inclination, when to end it, how to end it and replace with what etc unless he know it well. :)

[jackwan]

Yes, China can produce good racers for WC competitions if our country is willing to fund the money for 300 days of training a year overseas. I just doubt China will do that.

Besides, you need to have a large general population that starts racing at a very young age.

From Western point of view, you need large general population to produce a champ. Because my daughter's participation, I was so suprised to see how many girl's volley ball players joined private clubs from grade school level here in the US. Its not suprising when these girls grew up, those superior players will ended up in the Olympics. But that is in the Western world, China is different. Chinese train their athletes not by selection from the large general population, rather, they train their athletes by picking the better built children and train them professionally. In a way, Chinese govenment created a "professional athletes" class. Its not from the natural process.

[skier]

Just read that Hong Kong is doing very well in the Paralympics in Fencing:

http://www.mingpaonews.com/20080915/gok1.htm

Hong Kong got 8 Gold, 5 silver, and 1 Bronze in Athens.

[carver_hk-ski]

Just happen to found some free Chinese ski & snowboard training videos.
http://www.youku.com/playlist_show/id_167004.html

[Rene Cai]

Agreed with Jackwan, if China wants to create an Alpine Racer to achieve an Olympic Metal. Nowadays definitely is possible. It is a matter of they want it or not. Try to think back 8 years before where all over the world do have hesitation on China to hold an Olympic games?? Can they do this? Can they do that? Hey, this country has no experience before?? By now, in return it makes the world astonished. As Mike said, this event does wake up the world that Olympic Games Centre can be as good as this…...leaving a heavy headache to the following host.

In respect of human Bio mechanics rebuild, Jackwan is right, National Athletics Association will choose only the best human with good muscles strength, perfect anatomic scale plus optimistic kids to train. As you can see the Gymnastics, Diving, Swimming,Track & Field items. Yang Wei for example, trained in the age of 4, and course train professionally. Sometimes CCTV launched the video back for how the coach trained them, one shot that Yang Wei was crying when doing the stretching and continuous summersault.
This can be happened in Alpine Skiing as well. As for Bio Mechanics training i.e. muscle strength building, attitude & acceleration training e.g. fear of height, sense of speed response for muscles reaction, cool climatic muscles train.
All these can be done in China. Basic skill and techniques first year may be by National Coach and thenthe rest will be the cost for the Austrian or Italian Ski Coach Program plus participation of race continuously in Europe to gather experience and professional skill. China is rich now even through their parents may have to subsidize partially expenses and payments to get this achievement do you think is an obstacle?

BTW, may be some of you disagree the Chinese way of teaching but the Country started the recreational skiing market for just 11 years, for Winter Sports should be divided by 2 as it was a few months activities so that means 5 years, obviously there were no reference to base on to write this book and the Coach were former racer. Their training obviously was based on the route for racing but make it simple now. As compared with the previous edition 滑雪運動指南 launched in 2004 , this one is much better. 單兆鑒 himself not just the first Alpine Champion in China but he also spent lots of his time on developing recreational skiing activities.

Since 1994’s when he was the secretary of Chinese Ski Association. From only 3 ski resorts : 1/ Yabuli, 2/ Beidahu and 3/ Changbeishan (Everwhite Mt) to more than hundreds of ski areas today, I assured he has gained the credibility on this great achievements.

Although the books may not be your cup of tea, his effort for the skiing industry was deeply respected in China.

[carver_hk-ski]

a little bit OT, but anyone got a vid of how the Chinese athelete ski in the Olympic? lets get an idea of how they ski instead of guessing.
I searched for quite a while and still can't find any.

For recreational skiing this vid is the final product of short turn @22:20 lesson 20.
http://v.youku.com/v_playlist/f167004o1p27.html

[Mike]

a little bit OT, but anyone got a vid of how the Chinese athelete ski in the Olympic? lets get an idea of how they ski instead of guessing.


Were the Chinese qualified in any Alpine ski events in the last Winter Olmypics? :confused:

They jumped, not ski. :cool:

[carver_hk-ski]

here is a list of comment on different countries' WC performance.

http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3615&Itemid=2
CHINA Basics of Racing 1.50
The Chinese have brought alpine skiers to the Olympics since Lake Placid, topping its efforts in 1984 at Sarajevo with five slalom results between 18 and 33. Guangxu Li's 40th in the men's GS is credible, and Jinzhi Dong's 38th in women's GS likewise, but not at the level we had hoped to see based on past performance. Grade C-

[Mike]

here is a list of comment on different countries' WC performance.

http://www.skiracing.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=3615&Itemid=2

That was creditable performance. :) Hope more success on the way.

[skier]

I am surprised because the only few times that Chinese skiers were represented in the WC or Winter Olympics were the Taiwanese and their time is about doubled the top skiers.

Can we varify that China participated in Lake Placid and Sarajevo as early as 1984 from another source, and also their paticipation in WC in recent years?

[carver_hk-ski]

some FIS race result figures worth noting.
FIS ALPINE WORLD SKI CHAMPIONSHIPS − ÅRE 2007
MEN’S SLALOM 2nd RUN
OFFICIAL RESULTS
http://www.fis-ski.com/pdf/2007/AL/0394/2007AL0394RLR2.pdf
1st being AUT: 1:57
41 47 120037 TIAN Yuheng 1985 CHN 3 2:23.78
42 79 120019 ZHENG Min 1987 CHN 2:23.94

There is a huge difference in time. But still in the WC.

[skier]

I searched and found this:


http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/%20WinterOlympics/157125.htm

China did participate in 1980 and 1984 Winter Olympics in Alpine skiing.

[skier]

some FIS race result figures worth noting.
FIS ALPINE WORLD SKI CHAMPIONSHIPS − ÅRE 2007
MEN’S SLALOM 2nd RUN
OFFICIAL RESULTS
http://www.fis-ski.com/pdf/2007/AL/0394/2007AL0394RLR2.pdf
1st being AUT: 1:57
41 47 120037 TIAN Yuheng 1985 CHN 3 2:23.78
42 79 120019 ZHENG Min 1987 CHN 2:23.94

There is a huge difference in time. But still in the WC.



The above FIS link showed that 6 top finishers are separated by fraction of a second.
In this race the winner almost had a 2 second lead which is highly unusual. It is not uncommon to see the top 3 separated by hundreds of a second on the combined 2 runs.

I am surprised that China have entered Alpine racing as early as 1980.

But on the other hand, by now it has already been 27 years. It is nice to see China even participate in Alpine racing, and very commendable to our yourg racers. But with 23 seconds behind the top 6, it will be a long way to go to be in contention.

That is why I do not believe China is serious (tring to get Medals) in Alpine racing, which will require to put in a lot more of money and effort --money better spent in other areas of Winter sports.

[carver_hk-ski]

The chart shows the finalist was doing from
1:57 (1st) to 2:04(18th).
So its like 20 seconds away from the minimum standard.

There are no doubt the result is disappointing. But our athelete take it a success.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200602/22/eng20060222_244910.html
In the men's giant slalom competition on Monday, 21-year-old Li reached his goal, finishing 40th out of the total 82 skiers.

In short the article summarise what is the current status of alpine racing skiing. Basically mostly are problems.
1. not a common sport in China
2. short season (fatal)
3. not much difficult terrain (fatal)
4. lack of participant
5. lack of exposure to international events

Not a very bright future in terms of racing. But I have reserve in looking down on Chinese recreational skiing or teaching. The different in standard( WC vs Recreational) is simply huge. The cost of learning in China is way far from learning in the western world. :)

[carver_hk-ski]

just found a vid of a Chinese instructor in Wan Lung ski resort.
http://www.wlski.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardID=4&ID=422&page=1

[skier]

In short the article summarise what is the current status of alpine racing skiing. Basically mostly are problems.
1. not a common sport in China
2. short season (fatal)
3. not much difficult terrain (fatal)
4. lack of participant
5. lack of exposure to international events

Not a very bright future in terms of racing. But I have reserve in looking down on Chinese recreational skiing or teaching. The different in standard( WC vs Recreational) is simply huge. The cost of learning in China is way far from learning in the western world. :)


I agree with you totally.