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舊 2011-04-19, 11:55   #1
Mike
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舊 2011-04-19, 18:38   #2
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Notice the interesting upper body movement (0.46 to 0.51) to achieve easy carving of the skis.

This is first seen in the Japanese presentation at the 2003 Interski. At that time the Canadian commentator (Steve Smart) said that since Japan has gone through a real recession so they have been desperately trying ways to increase the number of people skiing in their country...

In general, such upper body movement is not good. But, I guess, by rotating the shoulder it is easier to achieve and feel the carving turns.
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舊 2011-04-20, 00:14   #3
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This video may be better
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舊 2011-04-20, 06:07   #4
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This video may be better
'Your' video does show the shoulder and arm movements that I mentioned.

The viedo shown by Mike is an Ad for the book and DVD that is being sold. Perhaps you can go and get that DVD and see what the Japanese say about those movements.
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舊 2011-04-20, 08:17   #5
Mike
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Notice the interesting upper body movement (0.46 to 0.51) to achieve easy carving of the skis.

This is first seen in the Japanese presentation at the 2003 Interski. At that time the Canadian commentator (Steve Smart) said that since Japan has gone through a real recession so they have been desperately trying ways to increase the number of people skiing in their country...

In general, such upper body movement is not good. But, I guess, by rotating the shoulder it is easier to achieve and feel the carving turns.
I have seen ski instructors in the Alps using this method in their ski lessons.
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舊 2011-04-20, 10:49   #6
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'Your' video does show the shoulder and arm movements that I mentioned.

The viedo shown by Mike is an Ad for the book and DVD that is being sold. Perhaps you can go and get that DVD and see what the Japanese say about those movements.
It may not be easy to buy the DVD because it was published many years ago :-(

2 years ago, I saw a Japanese instructor to teach that drill to his students on the slope in Japan. I was naughty to follow the students to practice the drill...hehe! The instructor was so kind to teach and explain to me the purpose of the drill. Actually, the reason is close to your guess - 'by rotating the shoulder it is easier to achieve and feel the carving turns'.
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舊 2011-04-20, 11:26   #7
Mike
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2 years ago, I saw a Japanese instructor to teach that drill to his students on the slope in Japan. I was naughty to follow the students to practice the drill...hehe! The instructor was so kind to teach and explain to me the purpose of the drill. Actually, the reason is close to your guess - 'by rotating the shoulder it is easier to achieve and feel the carving turns'.
As you said, it is only a drill. I was once told to ski with all the buckles undone as a drill.
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舊 2011-04-23, 10:21   #8
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舊 2011-04-23, 11:33   #9
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The above video showed that from 2:45 to 3:16, there is a lot of should rotation.

I wonder what is the purpose of this. It is certainly not for carving
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舊 2011-04-23, 13:23   #10
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You know that poles are very important on skiing bumps. I guess that the skier is demo-ing the practice of using poles for unweighting on groomed, and then that skill to be applied to the bump skiing. Since it's just a drill, it's not for good skiing on groomed trails.
Yeah, But pole planting does not require such upper body/shoulder movements.
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舊 2011-04-24, 09:42   #11
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Notice the interesting upper body movement (0.46 to 0.51) to achieve easy carving of the skis.

This is first seen in the Japanese presentation at the 2003 Interski. At that time the Canadian commentator (Steve Smart) said that since Japan has gone through a real recession so they have been desperately trying ways to increase the number of people skiing in their country...

In general, such upper body movement is not good. But, I guess, by rotating the shoulder it is easier to achieve and feel the carving turns.
I don't think I can agree with Steve Smart. This has nothing to do with recession, nor to attract skier's attention. This is simply a new approach to craving technics. As skiing is an open skill, one should have an open mind to view it. So even alternatives like Taichi skiing shouldn't be criticized until it was given an full explanation of its merits. Steve Smart is likely to have a narrow mind in this case. His narrow mind is probably caused by the obsession of counter-rotation of CSIA method.

I am a CSIA instructor, so isn't it wrong to 食碗底反碗面? No, I was taught by one method. I still have to analyze it and take whatever I like, the choice is mine. Moreover, methods are always changed, so there is no reason to stick to one kind of method. It is your skiing, so make your own desicion.

Honestly, I have not studied this kind of rotating upper body style long turns close enough to make any accurate comments. First, I don't have the DVD, second, my Japanese is not good enough to grasp the essence of its meaning even it was explained. So, all I can do is to analyse it within the range of what I already know.

For making carve turns, one important point is to edge on an early stage. We call it early edging. The other is to bend the ski while doing this edging movement. Now, we are talking about ski bending which is the door to advance skiing. How? if you have a plastic ruler (you probably won't have that, take your kid's or your grandchilden's). Now put some weight in the middle of the ruler, see! its bended. Understand now? we can simply bend our ski by applying weight in the middle. Now, hold one end of your ruler and slowly push it against the wall. See, its bended. Understand now? if the tip of the ski encounter some kind of resistance when traveling forward, it will be bended. For example, if you hit a bump, your ski will be bended.

Now, what the Japanese wants to show you (IMHO) is. By rotating a bit your upper body while you initiate the turn, you ski tips will catch an edge earlier which is good for early edging, also when your ski tip catch an edge while traveling forwand, the resistance it create can help you to bend the ski easier. It is really difficult for me to explain the mechanism by words. I don't know whether you can understand what I say at all. So next time when we meet, please remind me to show you with my hand, you will understand it right away.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 10:06   #12
Mike
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I don't think I can agree with Steve Smart. This has nothing to do with recession, nor to attract skier's attention. This is simply a new approach to craving technics. As skiing is an open skill, one should have an open mind to view it. So even alternatives like Taichi skiing shouldn't be criticized until it was given an full explanation of its merits. Steve Smart is likely to have a narrow mind in this case. His narrow mind is probably caused by the obsession of counter-rotation of CSIA method.

I am a CSIA instructor, so isn't it wrong to 食碗底反碗面? No, I was taught by one method. I still have to analyze it and take whatever I like, the choice is mine. Moreover, methods are always changed, so there is no reason to stick to one kind of method. It is your skiing, so make your own desicion.

Honestly, I have not studied this kind of rotating upper body style long turns close enough to make any accurate comments. First, I don't have the DVD, second, my Japanese is not good enough to grasp the essence of its meaning even it was explained. So, all I can do is to analyse it within the range of what I already know.

For making carve turns, one important point is to edge on an early stage. We call it early edging. The other is to bend the ski while doing this edging movement. Now, we are talking about ski bending which is the door to advance skiing. How? if you have a plastic ruler (you probably won't have that, take your kid's or your grandchilden's). Now put some weight in the middle of the ruler, see! its bended. Understand now? we can simply bend our ski by applying weight in the middle. Now, hold one end of your ruler and slowly push it against the wall. See, its bended. Understand now? if the tip of the ski encounter some kind of resistance when traveling forward, it will be bended. For example, if you hit a bump, your ski will be bended.

Now, what the Japanese wants to show you (IMHO) is. By rotating a bit your upper body while you initiate the turn, you ski tips will catch an edge earlier which is good for early edging, also when your ski tip catch an edge while traveling forwand, the resistance it create can help you to bend the ski easier. It is really difficult for me to explain the mechanism by words. I don't know whether you can understand what I say at all. So next time when we meet, please remind me to show you with my hand, you will understand it right away.
Well said. To me your explanation above is very clear and understood.

I recalled someone described skiing as follow:
"Skiing is like dancing with the mountain, but the mountain leads. and Snow is lingerie for the mountain. But skiing is art, and good skiing is good skiing, be it someone who has been through years of instruction or someone who has been skiing 25+ years and can ski anywhere at any time."

"Skiing is like sex. You know when you are doing it wrong! There is also an unlimited number of ways of "doing it right."

此篇文章於 2011-04-24 10:55 被 Mike 編輯。.
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舊 2011-04-24, 10:47   #13
Mike
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Below is an "Epic" discussion on turn with shoulders: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/...lders-in-turns

Note the comment from Kneale Brownson (posting #2) -
"Actually, she's beginning the turns with the upper body. Watch the hands and shoulders as she starts each turn.
Her movements are typical for skiers who have learned to step harder on the left ski to start a right turn and harder on the right ski to start a left turn. In the interim, she has learned to steer the basically weightless inside ski as part of the process, but I'll bet if you asked carefully, you could elicit from her a description of turning that would include pushing the outside ski around.
I'd go some place easy and suggest she try starting turns by flattening the new inside ski. As a progression, I'd ask her to start feeling the outside edge of the inside ski earlier and earlier in the turn--not standing on it, but actively feeling its engagement in the snow. She may find the outside ski then comes around more naturally and more effectively (more on edge)."

and from Bob Barnes (posting #12) -
"Kneale is dead on, in my opinion, sksier219 (as usual!). Upper body rotation defines your wife's turns in that video, and it causes a few problematic effects. Because she starts her turns by twisting her shoulders into the turn, she literally throws herself into a spin. Gentle though it may be, she has to stop that upper body spin before she can turn the other way, which requires a solid edge set at the end of the turn. Unfortunately, the same rotation move also pulls her hips out over her skis, making that edge set difficult.
The key is to increase her ability to turn her skis with her legs, instead of her upper body. There are many approaches to developing this skill--a good lesson would surely help. While it is a very popular drill, I am not personally a fan of the pole exercises described above. At best, they will minimize or eliminate the problematic upper body rotation, but they do little to develop the leg movements that must replace that rotation. She may figure that out on her own, but I would prefer activities that develop the new movements, over those that simply eliminate the "bad" movements. Quite likely, if she learns to turn her skis with her legs, she'll feel no need to rotate her upper body, and the problem will be solved!"

此篇文章於 2011-04-24 11:12 被 Mike 編輯。.
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舊 2011-04-24, 11:33   #14
skier
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I don't think I can agree with Steve Smart. This has nothing to do with recession, nor to attract skier's attention. This is simply a new approach to craving technics. As skiing is an open skill, one should have an open mind to view it. So even alternatives like Taichi skiing shouldn't be criticized until it was given an full explanation of its merits. Steve Smart is likely to have a narrow mind in this case. His narrow mind is probably caused by the obsession of counter-rotation of CSIA method.

I am a CSIA instructor, so isn't it wrong to 食碗底反碗面? No, I was taught by one method. I still have to analyze it and take whatever I like, the choice is mine. Moreover, methods are always changed, so there is no reason to stick to one kind of method. It is your skiing, so make your own desicion.

Honestly, I have not studied this kind of rotating upper body style long turns close enough to make any accurate comments. First, I don't have the DVD, second, my Japanese is not good enough to grasp the essence of its meaning even it was explained. So, all I can do is to analyse it within the range of what I already know.

For making carve turns, one important point is to edge on an early stage. We call it early edging. The other is to bend the ski while doing this edging movement. Now, we are talking about ski bending which is the door to advance skiing. How? if you have a plastic ruler (you probably won't have that, take your kid's or your grandchilden's). Now put some weight in the middle of the ruler, see! its bended. Understand now? we can simply bend our ski by applying weight in the middle. Now, hold one end of your ruler and slowly push it against the wall. See, its bended. Understand now? if the tip of the ski encounter some kind of resistance when traveling forward, it will be bended. For example, if you hit a bump, your ski will be bended.

Now, what the Japanese wants to show you (IMHO) is. By rotating a bit your upper body while you initiate the turn, you ski tips will catch an edge earlier which is good for early edging, also when your ski tip catch an edge while traveling forwand, the resistance it create can help you to bend the ski easier. It is really difficult for me to explain the mechanism by words. I don't know whether you can understand what I say at all. So next time when we meet, please remind me to show you with my hand, you will understand it right away.
Peter, are you kidding? Of course I understand -- it is so simple. I just wanted you to 'acknowledge' this approach by the Japanese and perhaps since you are in Japan and know some Japanese to explain further why they promote that.

For a more advanced skier, this approach can be tried just for the feel. But for the beginner using the shoulder rotation to initiate the turn is not good. Once one gets to a habit, it is difficult to kick. If it is not done right, the ski will not be on a carve but skidded. So the beginner will rotate the body back and forth making uncontrolled skidded turns.

Now, on Taichiskiing, his way of skiing is fine, but he knocks all the other world established methods. He even knocks FIS racing saying it is easy, and that is what 'everybody' is against.
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舊 2011-04-24, 12:24   #15
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Peter, are you kidding? Of course I understand -- it is so simple. I just wanted you to 'acknowledge' this approach by the Japanese and perhaps since you are in Japan and know some Japanese to explain further why they promote that.

For a more advanced skier, this approach can be tried just for the feel. But for the beginner using the shoulder rotation to initiate the turn is not good. Once one gets to a habit, it is difficult to kick. If it is not done right, the ski will not be on a carve but skidded. So the beginner will rotate the body back and forth making uncontrolled skidded turns.

Now, on Taichiskiing, his way of skiing is fine, but he knocks all the other world established methods. He even knocks FIS racing saying it is easy, and that is what 'everybody' is against.
AI totally agree with you. Rotating to start turning is not good for beginner and intermediates since they can't control how much they rotate to stay in balance. That's why CSIA doesn't promote this, one of their 3 main theme is turning with lower body.

Once the skier got a sound basic, then they can control with the right amount so it won't be a problem.
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