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舊 2011-04-24, 12:42   #16
freeskier
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作者: Mckay 查看文章
AI totally agree with you. Rotating to start turning is not good for beginner and intermediates since they can't control how much they rotate to stay in balance. That's why CSIA doesn't promote this, one of their 3 main theme is turning with lower body.

Once the skier got a sound basic, then they can control with the right amount so it won't be a problem.
I thought we are talking about high level skiing? If it is for beginners and intermediates, of course you don't want them to do that. IMHO, I think the Japanese have a point in promoting that for advance skiers, they just did that clumsily. Well, Japanese is never good at communication or teaching afterall.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 12:49   #17
Mckay
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作者: freeskier 查看文章
I thought we are talking about high level skiing? If it is for beginners and intermediates, of course you don't want them to do that. IMHO, I think the Japanese have a point in promoting that for advance skiers, they just did that clumsily. Well, Japanese is never good at communication or teaching afterall.
Otto Kamstra was in the interski 2011 and he told me Japan skiing theory is every body rotates and if you can't bit them, join them.

i rotate once situatition got tough but i don't want it happen, just can't control. it's pretty obvious my skiing is not high end.
Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 13:01   #18
freeskier
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作者: Mckay 查看文章
Otto Kamstra was in the interski 2011 and he told me Japan skiing theory is every body rotates and if you can't bit them, join them.

i rotate once situatition got tough but i don't want it happen, just can't control. it's pretty obvious my skiing is not high end.
Rotating involuntarily when situation get tough normally happens during the turn or end of the turn. It is different from "rotating your upper body deliberately to catch an edge earlier and grip it firmer" which happens at the beginning of the turn.

So can Otto beat them? or is he considering to join them?
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 13:43   #19
Mckay
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作者: freeskier 查看文章
Rotating involuntarily when situation get tough normally happens during the turn or end of the turn. It is different from "rotating your upper body deliberately to catch an edge earlier and grip it firmer" which happens at the beginning of the turn.

So can Otto beat them? or is he considering to join them?

Otto didn't tell me and i don't dare to ask him.

this year, the CSIA demo teami's short turn is very good , much faster.



If you watch the 4 ace cut the wind, their rotation cause them some problem.
Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 13:44   #20
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作者: snowrider 查看文章
I keep mentioning (in aonther forum) that the 5th components of PSIA's skiing is "Directional Movement". From my experiment and experience, that skiing component is really important for medium to long radius turns and, especially, good carving. It's about moving the upper body towards the direction where a skier is skiing to. It requires a bold decision to commit oneself to throw his/her CM to a position where the skis are yet to arrive.

That technique is very powerful for creating early edging. When the CM moves foreward to the skiing direction, it helps two things: edging and bending skiing (I want to echo what freeskier mentioned in hist post). The turn will be very clean, and the skier can decide whether to make sharp turns with the degree of bending.

That movement sometimes confuses people. Some skiers who try to learn that technique might mistakenly rotate their upper bodies and shoulders, while the technique is fore-and-aft movement instead of rotaray movement.

Janan Demostrators do rotate even on short turns.
Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 14:20   #21
Mckay
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作者: snowrider 查看文章
Gosh than I don't know why. Me little knowledge only know what I have been taught which is to keep upper body stable.
You can watch the Japan ( White ski suit with red letters ) and Korean ( white ski suites with black letters ) demonstrators more carefully. Their rotaional movement is in very control and happen when they start changing direction but still have the turning effort from the lower body

Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 18:05   #22
freeskier
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作者: Mckay 查看文章
Janan Demostrators do rotate even on short turns.

It depends on which types of short turns. In fact, they have demonstrated both. One kind is narrower, you don't use up that much space (width), the CM travel straight down the fall line. The other one is wider, the CM travels in a shallow S line instead of a straight line down the fall line. The one you refer should be the latter one? If so, then I can tell you it is not a rotation, it is something else.

IMHO, I think the Korean ski even better than the Japanese.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 19:10   #23
Mike
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作者: Mckay 查看文章
Janan Demostrators do rotate even on short turns.
作者: snowrider 查看文章
Gosh than I don't know why. Me little knowledge only know what I have been taught which is to keep upper body stable.
Gents, are you getting a bit too clinical and critical?
If I can ski like any of the skiers in the Interski team, I will be over the moon and don't mind a bit of shoulder rotation.
Similar as "Snowrider", I was told to have a quiet upper body and body always face down the fall-line.
Mike 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 21:06   #24
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作者: freeskier 查看文章
It depends on which types of short turns. In fact, they have demonstrated both. One kind is narrower, you don't use up that much space (width), the CM travel straight down the fall line. The other one is wider, the CM travels in a shallow S line instead of a straight line down the fall line. The one you refer should be the latter one? If so, then I can tell you it is not a rotation, it is something else.

IMHO, I think the Korean ski even better than the Japanese.
I like the short turns of those Canadian. Japanese can do whatever they want since there skiing are so strong. What they show is for the purpose of their theme.

the Korean's theme is put thier Taekwondo in their skiing as told by Otto. We met the head coach of the Korean Demo Team on Whistler, the guy we skied together before, Ray Young, the korean L4

Yo should ask Kawasaki, I think he's the translator at the interski2011
Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-24, 21:10   #25
Mckay
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作者: Mike 查看文章
Gents, are you getting a bit too clinical and critical?
If I can ski like any of the skiers in the Interski team, I will be over the moon and don't mind a bit of shoulder rotation.
Similar as "Snowrider", I was told to have a quiet upper body and body always face down the fall-line.
I don't want ot ski like the Italian demonstrator. Those Korean and Japanese demonstrator are supper strong skier, they can ski lots of style, that's no way for recreation skiers to be close to them.
Mckay 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-25, 08:16   #26
freeskier
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作者: snowrider 查看文章
OK, I am back. I am going to explain my reasoning about why those Japanes/Korean high-end skiers rotate their shoulders in short radius turns. You need to be a good observer or have engineering background to easily understand this. Here is my thought:

Have you guys seen a torpedo? How many propellers does it have? The answer is two. Why does a torpedo need to have two propellers? Your answer might be ... to make it move faster. Nope! That's not the answer. The answer is that one propeller spins the opposite direction as the other one does. Why? Because they need to offset the rotary momentum from each other, in order to keep the torpedo move straight. OK, now we are not talking about to make the skier move straight, but it's about the same idea - to offset the momentum from strong lower body's rotary movement with the opposite rotation of upper body.

If you pay more attention on the video frame by frame, you will find out that the Japenese/Korean skier's upper body rotates to the inside of a turn while his strong legs are still turning to outside. Have you notice how a small fish swims? When its tail swings to left, its head swing to right (to offset the swinging momentum). The stronger a skier's lower body is, the harder to keep the skier to center if he does not apply any opposite momemtum. Note that those high-end skiers must have super strong legs. Since their legs are so strong, and since they want to rotate their legs so quick, this makes a lot of sense to do so.

You might want to ask me ... if so, why do skiers from western countries not use that approach if it is reasonable. OK, western country skiers are averagely much heavier, so they have greater inertia mass. Therefore, propelling their legs won't really cause any problem because their heavier inertia mass stablize their movement. You might want to ask ... how so? OK, do you know one of the differences between a big fish's swimming and a small fish's? A big fish does not swing its head as much as the smaller fish does.

Make sense? IMO, it will happen natually when your legs reach their level.
Looks like there is some misunderstanding here. First, we have to understand what is rotation. Rotation is a term used by ski instructors to describe the upper body rotation movement created by beginner and intermediate skiers. The reason why they rotate their upper body is that they don't have enough skill to pivot their skis properly, thus they use their upper body to help them. For example, a beginner wants to turn right, as he doesn't have the ability to pivot his skis with his lower body, he rotate his upper body to right because thats the direction he wants to go. By rotating his upper body, his lower body will somehow follow, so will his skis. Now he make his first rotation in his life. He will be tempted to do it again and again, because this is his easy way to make a turn.

"To offset the momentum from strong lower body's rotatary movement with the opposite rotation of the upper body" is actually a good idea to correct the rotation problem, we use it all the time. In fact, we have another name for it. We call it the "counter-rotation".

Ok, now I'll try to explain why you guys think there is an rotation issue while I think otherwise.

If you watch the Japanese from 2.28-2.40, he used more space than other skiers, you can compare this with the next skier if you are not sure, measure it with a ruler if you want. Still not convinced? ok, please take a look at 3.43-3.58 the skier in yellow. Did you count how many turns he made, I did, he made 21 turns. Now, the next skier in white from the Japanese team 3.59-4.12 how many turns he made? He made only 12 turns. It is so obvious that there are two kinds of short turns presented in this video. I don't know whether they give them different names, so I'll just call them bigger and smaller short turns.

In my early skiing days, I was always told that my upper body should face the fall line. I confused a lot. Even when I traverse the slope? No way. It's all because of the misunderstanding. What will be a clearer statement should be like this. Your upper body should face the direction where your momentum goes. If you ski straight down without turning, you upper body should face down the fall line, right? but if you are travsing the slope, your upper body will not be facing down the fall line because it is not where your momentum go , right?

When doing short turns, our momentum will travel down the fall line more or less in a straight line no matter how our skis move from side to side. So our upper body should be facing downhill all the time. Its like, our lower body is very busy, turning the skis from this direction to other direction, while our upper body remain very stable, always facing downhill. So what if our turns gets bigger(bigger short turns), and our momentum is not travelling down as straight as before? It is still travelling down the fall line alright, but it is not in a straight line anymore, instead it is now becoming a shallow S-line.

This is where the issue begin, some say, just leave it, we just face downhill. It doesn't matter. Other say, it does matter, our upper body should follow our momentum. If our momentum travel to the side a little bit, our upper body should be facing the same direction as well.

The Japanese were not rotating, they were just trying to follow the direction of their momentum, that's all.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-25, 08:27   #27
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Very good and clear explanation.
skier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-25, 08:29   #28
freeskier
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You can watch the Japan ( White ski suit with red letters ) and Korean ( white ski suites with black letters ) demonstrators more carefully. Their rotaional movement is in very control and happen when they start changing direction but still have the turning effort from the lower body
Hey Mckay, the guy in red 3.35 looks like our good friend Kawasaki. don't you think so? It seems that the Japanese skiers is trying to explain something to the Canadian skier without sucess, so he called in someone for translation, which is our beloved Mr. Kawasaki. right? Kawasaki was there too, he is in the Canadian telemark demo team.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-25, 09:03   #29
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作者: Mike 查看文章
Gents, are you getting a bit too clinical and critical?
If I can ski like any of the skiers in the Interski team, I will be over the moon and don't mind a bit of shoulder rotation.
Similar as "Snowrider", I was told to have a quiet upper body and body always face down the fall-line.
Mike, Those are world class top skiers. They should be judged clinically and critically, they themselves will expect no less. That's the point of interski. To judge and to be judged, so there will be arguements, exchange of ideas etc. It is not a carnival style event just to make everyone happy.

I agree with Mckay, the Italian skier looks like a high school graduate amongst a group of scholars, even the Australian guy is better than him.

It's like watching a Miss universe beauty contest . Every girl is beautiful, and you will be over the moon if you can date anyone of them. But there are girls who are more attractive than the others, so it is left to the world to judge. The judgment is actually a mixture of critism and admiration.
freeskier 目前離線   回覆時引用此篇文章
舊 2011-04-25, 11:36   #30
freeskier
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First, I have to apologize to everyone for my lengthy and unnessary explanation which wasted your precious time reading. I guess thats because my nature of being an instructor. Really sorry about that.

Secondly, I want to explain why the Japanese and Koreans are different from the N.American way. I think I am quite qualify to do that, because I have been working in both places and know their culture. This could be quite lengthly, so if you don't have the paitient, you might as well quit reading from here. For those who have the time and interest to read, here is the anwser.

The very heart of the issue is: the Japanese don't want to be just good skiers, they want to be super good skiers. While the N Americans have a more relax approach.

I remember chatting to Kawasaki one time when we were working in Whistler. I asked him what he thinks about Japanese skiing. To my surprise, he said its all bullshit. He further explained that most of the Japanese demonstrators have racing backgrounds and are very strong skiers. They can ski any way they want. They all try to better the others, so their skiing become more and more aggressive. They publish magazines and CDs and have a very big influence in the Japanese ski industry. But their way of skiing is not for normal people who do not have the physical requirement and intensive training backgrounds. However, the Japanese have a culture of admiration for the strongest. So for many people they train very hard trying to acheive that. Japanese are very hard working people, so their skiing is all about training, training and training.

I have another good friend who is a Korean and just got his level 4 recently. His thinking is somehow different. He almost gave up trying for level 4 because he was told to ski less aggressively, and ski more slowly. He think if he continue to ski n this way, he will never be a super good skier. When I knew him, he was still very fit and train in the summer for the triathlon events. He is also a swimming coach. He has all the potential of becoming a super good skier, supreme physical condition, hard working, talents in multi sports etc. No wonder he didn't want down-tune his skiing just for getting the level 4 title.

For the N. Americans, they have a different attitude. Most of their demonstrators are from ski schools. So they are more educational-oriented. The purpose of a ski school is to make sure everyone have a good time on the mountain while learning how to ski in a safe and comfortable fashion(this is a lie, the real purpose of a ski school is to make some money). They try to create a goal that most people can reach, and in the process of reaching this goal, there are some fun that goes along with it, so they are willing to keep it going (keep on having more lesson means more business for the ski school).

Two different cultures , two different goals, two different methods therefore two different styles.

Personally, despite my admiration for the agressive style of Japanese skiing. I am all against it for using it on teaching (unless very high end skiing). For example, that rotation thing, it is very aggressive but it is not very healthy for your knees. Because when you twist like that, your knee will be under stress, the more rotation, the more stress. And we are talking about torsional stress on your knees. If you like to watch Japanese ski videos, you will see that old demontrastor like 渡邊一樹won't use rotation, while young skiers like 柏木義之 use that a lot. If you are young and strong, you can build up more muscle to offset the stress and even if there is some stress, who cares. Older skier will have more concern about their knees.

Ray Young, the head coach of the Korean Demo team have 7 times operations done on his both knees when I knew him many years ago in Whistler. I wonder how many more operations were done afterwards. When you ski aggressively, there is always a price to pay.
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