Skis - race tune

[Mike]

作者: snowrider Mike - Thanks for the information. I was told to use some soap water (or water) when using diamond stone in order to make the stone last longer. It's good to know that the waste is bad to the base.

Snowrider,
Diamond stones and ceramic stones are used for two purposes:
1st, to take the burrs off the edges after a day of skiing (especially if you've skied on ice or rocks!) before you start filing.
2nd, to take the fine burrs of the edges after you have completed your filing. A diamond or ceramic stone will polish up the edges and harden them against future burring.

Some diamond stones can be used with a lubricant (water or "polishing solution"), others should not. All ceramic stones can.

There are 2 schools of thought. One argues that lubricating diamond stones will yield superior results (smoother sharper edge), and will also lengthen the life of a diamond stone by preventing it from clogging up with debris. Some opined that the waste and filings will get into the base if lubricant is used.

As for lubricant, 50/50 mix of de-natured alcohol/de-ionised water is suggested. Alternative is soapy water which is convenient.

So, I suppose, it is best to use your own judgement whether lubricant should be used or not.

[Mike]

Same question always pop-up - should one de-tune the tip and tail?

Really, there is no should or should not. It really depends on how you ski and where you ski.
To decide whether the tips and tails ought to be de-tuned, one need to understand a bit more about base bevel.
Base bevel affects how far out to the side your skis get before they start to hook up in a turn.
With too little they start to hook up under you and they become touchy to steer into the turn.
The more you add the further out they get before they hook.
If you are strong and believe they will hook up eventually, you can get enough edge angle to carve, quickly release and adjust your trajectory.
One of the enjoyments about carving is that period of time when the skis are crossing your upper body in a turn and you are weightless. Then the skis hook, the feel of G force builds, and you are going somewhere else without losing any speed.
Higher base bevel angles require more faith in your equipment.

For those not really into carving and don't like that locked in on rails feeling. And prefer a more gradual "soft" entry into the turn, then there is no need for de-tune. Also, in soft snow, same applies.

[Mike]

Snowrider, for the type of snow you get on the East Coast, you might like to consider the Toko cold powder wax along the ski edge to minimize "base burn"

[Mike]

作者: snowrider Mike - This sounds like a good tool. However, after I did some quick research on the internet, I found that for the purpose of quick sharpening it's too expensive ($800) for me. Also, the following comments from epicski is very informative: http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/...an#post_761081

Here is the video on the Wintersteiger Discman

[Mike]

作者: Mike Same question always pop-up - should one de-tune the tip and tail? Really, there is no should or should not. It really depends on how you ski and where you ski. To decide whether the tips and tails ought to be de-tuned, one need to understand a bit more about base bevel. Base bevel affects how far out to the side your skis get before they start to hook up in a turn. With too little they start to hook up under you and they become touchy to steer into the turn. The more you add the further out they get before they hook. If you are strong and believe they will hook up eventually, you can get enough edge angle to carve, quickly release and adjust your trajectory. One of the enjoyments about carving is that period of time when the skis are crossing your upper body in a turn and you are weightless. Then the skis hook, the feel of G force builds, and you are going somewhere else without losing any speed. Higher base bevel angles require more faith in your equipment. For those not really into carving and don't like that locked in on rails feeling. And prefer a more gradual "soft" entry into the turn, then there is no need for de-tune. Also, in soft snow, same applies.

To understand a bit more about the difference between detuning and detuning/dulling.

Detuning is done to take the burrs of your edges after sharpening, this is usually a single 45 degree pass with a gumi stone with low pressure.
Detunning/Dulling is done with the same gumi stone but more progresively on the tips and tails.

In general, the right amount of detuned/dulled on tail and tip will make that you enter a turn with the flick of your boots. Too much detuned/dulled and your tip and tails have no grip making it hard to enter turn and it feels like you are all over the place. Not enough detuned/dulled and your tip will enter a turn unwanted, giving you the feel that they control you and they bite back.

Check how sharp is sharp, if you can shave with them they are sharp. A sharp edge will not feel sharp it will feel very smooth, your nail will tell you it is real sharp, if it feels sharp the edge usually has burrs.

How to detune/dull edges, take a gumi stone and use pressure on a 45 degree angle, overlap strokes lighter pressure towards where you want them sharp. Take that gumi stone with you the first day and check your edges at the end of the day for stone hits which create burr and drag, then a diamond file will take care of these..

[Mike]

Can skis be too sharp?
Answer is NO. It is either sharp or it is not. If your skis are not performing as they should, it means that your skis were sharpened/tuned to the wrong angle. If you feel the edges are "too sharp" it is usually due to a hanging burr.

Hanging burr is caused by working on your side edge! To remove it you should put your ski in a vise, side edge up, base facing away from you. Place a true hard stone flat against the base edge making sure to not to roll it over the side edge . With meduium pressure run the stone flat against the base edge, make a couple passes overlapping. You can hear when the edge is smooth. As a last step, very lightly with no pressure run a gummi stone at a 45 degree angle to the actual point of the edge.

[gbertram]

I now use .75 / .7 on base and 3 degrees on the side...

.7 or .75 means that it is easier to engage the edge, and 3 on the side means they will be super sharp!

[Mike]

作者: gbertram I now use .75 / .7 on base and 3 degrees on the side... .7 or .75 means that it is easier to engage the edge, and 3 on the side means they will be super sharp!

075º base bevel enables quicker to start the turn and takes much less angulation to hold, whereas a 1º base edge angle is more forgiving for less aggressive skiers.

For difference between 2 and 3º edge bevel - in normal skiing, recreational skiers will find it difficult to feel much difference between the two side edges. However, when they really laid the ski over and ripped (eg. running gates in a slalom course) the 3º side edge will hold much better. But the 3º edge is more demanding to ski on.

[goldox]

作者: Mike the difference between the 2 edge bevel guides is the roller as you said. The one with the roller is the pro model, the rollers allow easy smooth slide along the base and to protect it from edge filings being embedded in the structure. With the top one, there is a possibility that filings might get caught between the ski base and the plastic face of the edge guide. But since the skis are held in the vice with the base vertical, there is little chance the filings will get stuck on the base surface. IMO, the top one will be fine. Below is a pic of my equipment for edge tuning purpose - Top is the ceramic disc grinder for final polishing of the ski edges. Middle left is the sidewall cutter Middle right is the side edge file guide Bottom left is the base edge file guide Bottom right is a pocket file guide with diamond file.

Mike. Your sidewall cutter, and side edge file guide look like Toko's. But Toko's are normally in yellow and not in blue, right?

Can you kindly explain how your base edge file guide work? I have seen your type of base edge file guide on sale on the internet but I have no idea how they work. With the majority of SIDE edge file guide pictures, even without one in my hands, I think I could appreciate how it works. But this BASE edge file guide really intrigues me.

[Mike]

作者: goldox Mike. Your sidewall cutter, and side edge file guide look like Toko's. But Toko's are normally in yellow and not in blue, right? Can you kindly explain how your base edge file guide work? I have seen your type of base edge file guide on sale on the internet but I have no idea how they work. With the majority of SIDE edge file guide pictures, even without one in my hands, I think I could appreciate how it works. But this BASE edge file guide really intrigues me.

Mine are Holmenkol equipment, except the Cermaic Disc Grinder which is Wintersteiger. Toko is normally expensive but certainly not the best.

The base bevel guide works the same way as the edge bevel guide. You can choose 0.5, 0.75 or 1 degree base bevel.

I think the following threads cover most if not all about ski tuning, I don't want to go through them all over again. Read them first and ask any question you have afterwards.

http://www.hkssa.net/showthread.php?t=34805

http://www.hkssa.net/showthread.php?t=59864

[goldox]

Thanks Mike. I have read those two threads several weeks ago. I think I don't have to reread them so soon yet. They contain a great deal of useful information I have to say.

I am just curious how the two dials and the slider in your base edge file guide works. I have seen many SIDE edge file guide videos on youtube. But I just have not come across a video explaining how your BASE edge file guide works.

I punched Holmenkol into ebay and all they returned were some wax and bottled liquid stuff haha. When I punched it into Amazon, the whole page that returned was in German (I suppose). I wonder where anyone could get the stuff you have from the internet. Cheers.

[Mike]

Here is a video on how to use the base bevel guide.
Please note that you are not supposed to touch it once it is set. You reset (or alter) the base bevel when you take your skis to the shop for a stone-grind.

[Mike]

The reason why you don't find a lot of info on the base bevel tuning is because you are not supposed to touch it once it is set. If you file the base edges, you will eventually need to re-grind the base of the skis to get the P-Tex level with your filed base edges. For this reason, only file the base edge after a stone grind, and then only if you really need to. A lot of people stick with the base edge they get from a tune shop and don't touch it all season. When sharpening the metal edges, there is one key thing to remember - you can take off, but you can't put back on.

I got all my Holmenkol & Wintersteiger tools from their agent in UK where I took a training course few years ago.

Here is a catalogue in English : http://www.holmenkol.com/fileadmin/u...ntend=snlrdnmf

[goldox]

Thanks Mike.

What is a "stone grind"? Can you kindly point me to some previous posts where "stone grind" was explained?

I just visited the holmenkol's catalogue. I made my way to their home page too. I then clicked English. It seems they don't put prices up on website.

[goldox]

In your newly posted video above I think the guy showed some files and stones. One of the stones had coloured circular spots on it like those in the picture here. Is the stone element within the coloured circular spots or outside the spots?